Lonely Loneliness

I am thinking of staying away…

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Reg Riddle (regrid…@aol.com) writes: >>Delighted to see that you can post, Paul! >>Now, could you please explain *who* are those undesiderables? Can >>you name some of them, or they are so much indesiderable that even >>their names haven’t do deal with? >>Paul, there has been in the past several people who annoyed me, >>but I’ve *never* told anyone to leave. I’ve just waited for them to >>learn a more civil behaviour, or to go away. >>There are no desiderable or indesiderable people. But just people. >>You should learn to deal with people, not to label them as "desiderable" >>or "indesiderable". Grow up! >>– >>All the best >>                    Raffaele > Aw c’mon Raffaele….you’re a bit testy today, aren’t you ?  <smile> > Paul made a very honest statement.  This is a support group.

Hi, Gina, hi , all, There are many support groups. The thing is this one is a support group related to loneliness… and isolation then. The theme is wide enough to include just about any topic. Just about. But it is not about supporting isolating comments, I woudl think. I am sure that certainly, this is not what Paul nor anyone wishes to support, suppoting isolating stands in a *loneliness* support group… That would be absurd and render the support in times of loneliness rather vain… Chloe  You are so very > good at giving support…what happened?  I guess we all have our "off" days.   > Wanna talk?  I’m here. > Smiles, > Gina > "How high can you fly with broken wings? > Life’s a journey, not a destination, > And I just can’t tell what tomorrow brings.." >                      — Aerosmith

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Response:

raffa…@my-dejanews.com wrote in message

<6vii8f$ov…@nnrp1.dejanews.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi! >Delighted to see that you can post, Paul! >Now, could you please explain *who* are those undesiderables? Can >you name some of them, or they are so much indesiderable that even >their names haven’t do deal with? >Paul, there has been in the past several people who annoyed me, >but I’ve *never* told anyone to leave. I’ve just waited for them to >learn a more civil behaviour, or to go away. >There are no desiderable or indesiderable people. But just people. >You should learn to deal with people, not to label them as "desiderable" >or "indesiderable". Grow up!

I believe I understand your impatience here, Raff… there seems to be some negative labelling going on here again and we remember too well what that can do in a group… so I too would like to find out why it is starting up again… what is there to be gained with this negativity – ths elitism attitude of calling people undesireables… I too would like to know where this is coming from… before someone not as secure as me or you starts feeling they are not wanted here… perhaps some are afraid of new people and are expressing their own insecurities through negativity… the only think undesireable about this newsgroup these days is the illusion that things are not good here… so come on nay sayers, what’s not good?… don’t just make general statements that things are not good, care enough to help fix what’s wrong… that goes out to all of us who care about asl… there’s a new ASL Web Site growing… asl itself is growing… there’s more positivity every day… so what’s wrong?… hope to hear some specifics we can work on resolving honest love, ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->– >All the best >                    Raffaele ><http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> >In article <361bf01…@news.icehouse.net>, >  "PHOFFMAN" <PHOFF…@nospam.ICEHOUSE.NET> wrote: >> Hi >> I can finally post! >> I hope you won’t leave for long I believe we are losing too many people who >> care but they find people who don’t and they leave. I will be here because I >> feel even with the flames, if I don’t try there will be somebody who missed >> me when I needed them or I will have missed someone who(I’m not that >> important but I believe we are the losers if people like you leave becase of >> the undesirables) needed me. I will say it is your choice but we lose a lot >> one person at a time. >> Paul >>——-SNIP———< >———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- >http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Response:

Reg Riddle wrote in message

<19981008233154.25963.00008…@ng38.aol.com>… >Aw c’mon Raffaele….you’re a bit testy today, aren’t you ?  <smile> >Paul made a very honest statement.  This is a support group.  You are so very >good at giving support…what happened?  I guess we all have our "off" days. >Wanna talk?  I’m here. >Smiles, >Gina

Gina… are you trying to pick a fight or provoke Raffaele?… that’s the sens I am getting from the tone of your words here… all night you’ve been moaning and lamenting and complaining… and now that Raffaele may have been shwn he’s a bit tired of the complaining about imaginary problems, you’re all smiles and sarcasm… please consider that you offered very little support tonight, since you’re questioning Raffaele’s support… you’ve complained, stirred old wounds, and now seem to be sticking your tongue out at Raffaele… of course my reading of your change of written mood could be completely wrong… but my reading of your focusing on negatives, correcting others, and judging is not… how about you offering some real support here? you asked me to remind you if you started doing this again, so… I’m reminding you honest love, ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"How high can you fly with broken wings? >Life’s a journey, not a destination, >And I just can’t tell what tomorrow brings.." >                     — Aerosmith

Response:

Hi Paul… good to see you back… perhaps you didn’t read much before you posted, but there haven’t been flames here for some time… more new people are introducing themselves and praising the positivity and caring here than at any time in the past year… so please don’t stir up healing wounds by inferring that there are flames and undesireable people here… unless, of course, you actually see flames and undesireable people… do you?… perhaps you were using a metaphor?… or perhaps you see what I don’t see?… I’d appreciate you showng me where this negativity might be… and you know, if Gina didn’t assume you were supporting her contention that there is a problem in this group, I’d probably not be asking so specifically… but I feel, with gina stirring the embers so much recently, that the we should be very clear in what we are saying about asl… is there some problem now in this group that we should be addressing?… I, for one, would like to address any problems you might see… at the moment, the only one I see is an imaginary one… which is why I am asking, because without clarification, imaginary problems tend to become real… I appreciate your caring and stating you will stand by asl through challenges… how’s it going these days from your perspective? honest love, ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PHOFFMAN wrote in message <361bf01…@news.icehouse.net>… >Hi >I can finally post! >I hope you won’t leave for long I believe we are losing too many people who >care but they find people who don’t and they leave. I will be here because I >feel even with the flames, if I don’t try there will be somebody who missed >me when I needed them or I will have missed someone who(I’m not that >important but I believe we are the losers if people like you leave becase of >the undesirables) needed me. I will say it is your choice but we lose a lot >one person at a time. >Paul >Patron saint of lost causes and hopeless endeavours >Virginia B wrote in message <361adad…@news-out2.newsnerds.com>… >>I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to >>truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. >>I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this >>group?  Unkindness is not supportive. >>Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… >>I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the >>very best.  Find the love. >>Virginia >><who used to sing you songs> >>___________________________________________________________ >>Sea Escape >>       by Virginia Lee >>Let’s  walk into the ocean >>And disappear from the world >>Dive down beneath the waves >>Where life is not so cruel >>We’ll look back on the days >>Of our lives among men >>And we’ll sing many songs >>Of decadence and sins >>Then we’ll smile to ourselves >>And be >>Sad

Response:

Gina… please tell me… who is making innuendos and what are they? who is acting pretentiously?… who has inferred Virgina is not intelligent?… who called her stupid?… who used negative, insulting, provocative words?… who has ostracized you?… who has accused you of writing under another name?… who is doing the labelling?… as you are responding to me, if I did any of these things, please show me – in my words… I certaily didn’t intend to do any of these things you’ve written about and I’d appreciate you helping me see where I did… and maybe you can tell us what is bothering you?… instead of complaining in general about the group not being the same as it was, tell us what is going on that has you so down and negative… you keep telling us we don’t care about you, you say your friends are turning on you, you are lamenting and seem to be stirring around in discontent and despair… waiting for us to pull teeth? just tell us what’s going on, what’s bothering you – instead of beating around the bush with sighs of despair and laments of some better yesterday… everything changes Gina… and personally, I think this group has changed much for the better… it’s open and honest more accepting and tolerant and understanding than ever now… I think you might miss the pretense of security that was shattered by the reality of new voices who spoke freely about pain and anger… that might have shocked the sheltered environment asl seemed to be for you for a short time… well, I can tell you that it was an illusion and if anyone wants such an illusion, it’s not wise to try to create it in an open and public forum… that’s what private mailing lists and moderated newsgroups are for… for the protected sense of parental security… but I don’t think that’s the way to learn how to deal with the real world issues that have us sitting here typing our thoughts and feelings, instead of out trying to share more in the physical world… we’ll never resolve any real issues if we hide in protected little kingdoms… that’s what I came back to when I returned to asl in June… and I was surprised at how closed the atmosphere was… yes, there was a very warm and loving bond between a small group – but the majority of people were ostracized and anyone who tried to voice an opinion differing from the small group that set up house here was treated coldly and rudely in some cases… and that lead to the flame wars you continue to refer to… we are now a wide open forum welcoming *anyone* and not judging them negatively on their first post – get this particular point?… it’s not a closed shop where one can get away with prejudice… self-pity trips won’t be coddled and nurtured the way they used to be… self-respect is respected… self-pity and wallowing is not fed the way it was… is that what you miss?… you may say no, but I think it is… you are not getting the same responses to your negativity that you used to get… there’s no rallyng around a common enemy the way there used to be… there’s no mass condemnation and calling people devil incarnate or evil personified or hitler or manson or any such ridiculous rabble rousing… there’s no rush to coddle self pity… and much less defensive paranoia – this is what you are lamenting and missing?… come on, Gina… what’s really on your mind… I don’t think anybody wants to play the self-deprecating games anymore… I don’t think anybody wants to feel it’s fun or funny to put themselves down anymore… I don’t think anybody wants to pretend anymore… that’s what’s really change here… and of course that’s just my opinion… but I’ve been wandering through this newsgroup for a couple of years now, on and off… and I think I’ve got a pretty good feel of the flow of posts… more new people are saying hello than at any other time this year… and they are praising the positivity… you don’t seem to be paying attention to that… maybe you miss your old friends… well, most choose not to post here not… take that up with them… but telling us that the place is changed in negative tones is putting down the new people who are here… the irony of this for me is – I think the group you are missing would have never tolerated the negativity you’ve presented the way today’s group has… I think you’ve have been asked to stop or leave, as many who came in hurting and lamenting were… nobody’s asked you to leave… in fact, you keep claiming you’re being attacked, but nobody’s attacked you… I’ve seem several people try to calm you down when you’ve gotten upset and help you through your disenchantment and disapproval of the asl of today… I’ve responded to a dozen new people, at least, in the last two days… every one of them praised the support and caring going on here… talk to them, Gina… you’re welcome to express yourself honestly and openly… ask any one of the newbies why they delurked and what they’ve seen in the time they’ve spent reading the last weeks or months… the friendship, love, support, and hope is here, G… you’ve just got to stop pushing it away and reach out for it if you want some… I hope you do… honest love, ric  "it’s hard to find a new dream…                            with an old one in your eyes"                                            ~Gary Moore~ Reg Riddle wrote in message

<19981008235547.28442.00009…@ng37.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ric wrote: ><snip> >>I feel it’s wonderful here now compared to the way it was during the >>summer… and I thank you for giving us a chance to introspect a bit >>about ourselves as a group… by the way, are you ever called Gina?… I >>just associated the names because she seemed to think you see the same >>thing she sees and I was wondering, that’s now what I gathered from your >>posts… perhaps you will decide to stay when you are through thinking? >>:) >Dear Ric… >I’m assuming, without deciding, that you are surely kidding here.  My real name >is Regina, not Virginia.  I would not have to resort to writing under another >name to point out that ASL is not what some are trying to force others to >believe.  I’ve stated my opinion…clearly…and I signed my name. >I do agree with you on several issues….one such being the finger >pointing….for if one points a finger at the person they claim is pointing a >finger, then you have two pointing fingers instead of one…..if one makes a >big issue of pointing out that someone might be saying something just for >attention, then you have two seeking attention instead of one. >And….if someone is here seeking attention, then I’ll give them all I can. >This is a support group.  Ignoring someone is not the ideal way to provide that >support.  And…I’m not pointing any fingers here or vying for my daily dose of >attention…I’m here to give attention…not get it.  Oh wait…I think I’ve >already been ostracized for pointing that out once. >This should be a place where anyone can state what they feel and/or see without >fear of being labeled.  I would say that Virginia is intelligent enough to know >what she sees and reads, and the attempts made to force her to change her mind, >are not being very fair or kind to her.  It comes off sounding like some are >telling her she is stupid to even suggest ASL is not the same.  It is not the >same….it has changed.  There are some caring and sincere people still >here….but just by saying it’s a wonderful place…or better than before, >doesn’t make it true.   It’s like the first step in alcohol or drug >rehab….you have to admit there is a problem before it can even begin to be >fixed. > I’m tired of the  innuendos and pretenses of the mind reading abilities of >some here. >I’m sorry if I am offending anyone … for  I do love everyone here and hope >that someday the feeling will be mutual. >Gina. >"Criticism should not be querulous and wasting, but guiding, instructive, >inspiring." >                       —  Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Delighted to see that you can post, Paul! >Now, could you please explain *who* are those undesiderables? Can >you name some of them, or they are so much indesiderable that even >their names haven’t do deal with? >Paul, there has been in the past several people who annoyed me, >but I’ve *never* told anyone to leave. I’ve just waited for them to >learn a more civil behaviour, or to go away. >There are no desiderable or indesiderable people. But just people. >You should learn to deal with people, not to label them as "desiderable" >or "indesiderable". Grow up! >– >All the best >                    Raffaele

Aw c’mon Raffaele….you’re a bit testy today, aren’t you ?  <smile> Paul made a very honest statement.  This is a support group.  You are so very good at giving support…what happened?  I guess we all have our "off" days.   Wanna talk?  I’m here. Smiles, Gina "How high can you fly with broken wings? Life’s a journey, not a destination, And I just can’t tell what tomorrow brings.."                      — Aerosmith

Response:

Ric wrote:

<snip> >I feel it’s wonderful here now compared to the way it was during the >summer… and I thank you for giving us a chance to introspect a bit >about ourselves as a group… by the way, are you ever called Gina?… I >just associated the names because she seemed to think you see the same >thing she sees and I was wondering, that’s now what I gathered from your >posts… perhaps you will decide to stay when you are through thinking? >:)

Dear Ric… I’m assuming, without deciding, that you are surely kidding here.  My real name is Regina, not Virginia.  I would not have to resort to writing under another name to point out that ASL is not what some are trying to force others to believe.  I’ve stated my opinion…clearly…and I signed my name. I do agree with you on several issues….one such being the finger pointing….for if one points a finger at the person they claim is pointing a finger, then you have two pointing fingers instead of one…..if one makes a big issue of pointing out that someone might be saying something just for attention, then you have two seeking attention instead of one. And….if someone is here seeking attention, then I’ll give them all I can. This is a support group.  Ignoring someone is not the ideal way to provide that support.  And…I’m not pointing any fingers here or vying for my daily dose of attention…I’m here to give attention…not get it.  Oh wait…I think I’ve already been ostracized for pointing that out once. This should be a place where anyone can state what they feel and/or see without fear of being labeled.  I would say that Virginia is intelligent enough to know what she sees and reads, and the attempts made to force her to change her mind, are not being very fair or kind to her.  It comes off sounding like some are telling her she is stupid to even suggest ASL is not the same.  It is not the same….it has changed.  There are some caring and sincere people still here….but just by saying it’s a wonderful place…or better than before, doesn’t make it true.   It’s like the first step in alcohol or drug rehab….you have to admit there is a problem before it can even begin to be fixed.  I’m tired of the  innuendos and pretenses of the mind reading abilities of some here. I’m sorry if I am offending anyone … for  I do love everyone here and hope that someday the feeling will be mutual. Gina. "Criticism should not be querulous and wasting, but guiding, instructive, inspiring."                        —  Ralph Waldo Emerson.  

Response:

>Hi >I can finally post! >I hope you won’t leave for long I believe we are losing too many people who >care but they find people who don’t and they leave. I will be here because I >feel even with the flames, if I don’t try there will be somebody who missed >me when I needed them or I will have missed someone who(I’m not that >important but I believe we are the losers if people like you leave becase of >the undesirables) needed me. I will say it is your choice but we lose a lot >one person at a time. >Paul >Patron saint of lost causes and hopeless endeavours

Dear Paul…. How I wish I could have said it as eloquently and honestly as you.  Thank you, Paul.  That is why I stay, too. Hugs and Smiles, Gina "How high can you fly with broken wings? Life’s a journey, not a destination, And I just can’t tell what tomorrow brings.."                      — Aerosmith

Response:

Hi! Delighted to see that you can post, Paul! Now, could you please explain *who* are those undesiderables? Can you name some of them, or they are so much indesiderable that even their names haven’t do deal with? Paul, there has been in the past several people who annoyed me, but I’ve *never* told anyone to leave. I’ve just waited for them to learn a more civil behaviour, or to go away. There are no desiderable or indesiderable people. But just people. You should learn to deal with people, not to label them as "desiderable" or "indesiderable". Grow up! — All the best                     Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> In article <361bf01…@news.icehouse.net>,   "PHOFFMAN" <PHOFF…@nospam.ICEHOUSE.NET> wrote: > Hi > I can finally post! > I hope you won’t leave for long I believe we are losing too many people who > care but they find people who don’t and they leave. I will be here because I > feel even with the flames, if I don’t try there will be somebody who missed > me when I needed them or I will have missed someone who(I’m not that > important but I believe we are the losers if people like you leave becase of > the undesirables) needed me. I will say it is your choice but we lose a lot > one person at a time. > Paul >——-SNIP———<

———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

Virginia…. Have you noticed how big this newsgroup has gotten? I have a feeling of real *family* here.  And Just as in real life families there are squabbles…so there will be here…. It doesnt mean that there is no support here also….as a matter of fact I think that there is quite a lot of support going on….. just look at the posts lately…my goodness I havent seen but maybe a quiet perturbed word or two…nothing close to honest to goodness fighting or non-support Virginia…stay or go…thats up to you….but I think that you are wrong….with so many personalities here it would be unrealistic to think there wouldnt be a disagreement or two  :)  and if someone is having a bad hair day or pms or back trouble or a bad day at the office…well it will cloud their way of thinking a bit….. Its still a great group  :) jan "Write the bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble."  -Arabic Parable – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Virginia wrote….. >I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to >truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. >I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this >group?  Unkindness is not supportive. >Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… >I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the >very best.  Find the love. >Virginia ><who used to sing you songs> >___________________________________________________________ >Sea Escape >       by Virginia Lee >Let’s  walk into the ocean >And disappear from the world >Dive down beneath the waves >Where life is not so cruel >We’ll look back on the days >Of our lives among men >And we’ll sing many songs >Of decadence and sins >Then we’ll smile to ourselves >And be >Sad

Response:

Caroline wrote in message <6vfdod$8o…@news2.xs4all.nl>… >Dear Virginia, >*HUG* to you for caring about ASL.  Please ignore the ripples, the ocean of >caring people is still here >Caroline >*** >Life is mostly froth and bubble. >Two things stand like stone: >Kindness in another’s trouble >Courage in your own. >                Al Gordon

oh so wise dear Caroline… what I say in a thousand words, you express better in what, a dozen thank you for being here Caroline honest love, ric

Response:

In article <Y%YS1.106$xh6.136…@news.cwix.com>,   "ric" <can…@writeme.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> we need time to go through > the steps of healing… denial… rage and anger… acceptance… > there’s no easy way to heal… and some can not heal some scars, but > must learn to live with the constant frustration without constant > anger… > we need the security of friends – and the freedom to be ourselves… > that is what true support is… and some of us are very angry and we > don’t even know it ourselves, but it shows in our actions/words… we > need to help each other get real and stop playing games… sometimes the > way to do that is through direct confrontation – and that isn’t always > pretty to watch – no less to go through… sometimes the way is to > ignore the negative behaviours… and that often makes the person > seeking attention escalate the provocative and sometimes subtle > manipulations for attention… > we need to recognize we are all capable of this to some extent… and > then trust in each other enough to believe we might be wrong when > someone suggests we are wrong… and not consider that an insult or a > put down, but consider it a helping hand… or at worst, worthless > advice…

I agree with every word (I think). All I would like to add is that I find the group healthy inasmuch as "attention seeking" has ceased to be a furious accusation hurled amongst people who are spoiling for a fight. The act of posting on ANY NG, even if it a request for help with database design posted in comp.ms-access, is an act of seeking attention. This post is an attention-seeking post. If you didn’t want anyone to read what you have written you wouldn’t post, right? You may want attention because you think you have something of value to say, or because you want help and advice, or because you think that you might be able to make someone laugh and spit ketchup onto their tie, or because you want to rant and "vent", or because no-one else listens to you and you think that here, someone might. What is damaging is when this natural desire for attention is not acknowledged. That’s why I agree strongly with what ric says here. I think people can sense the difference between genuine care and bogus concern, and I for one never felt comforted or "supported" by the latter. And I do feel there is a lot of genuine care here, now. But putting on an act of caring for everyone, all the time, and confusing one’s own personal impressions, likes and dislikes with "Right and Wrong" or "The Truth" results in a dangerous form of schizophrenia. In my view it is much better to have people honestly expressing their anger or annoyance or feelings of offence and resolving them when they arise – which often means one is still in time to seek out the true cause in a misunderstanding or words spoken in haste – than keeping them bottled up and then later disguising them in some kind of moral crusade or vendetta, where the true cause is unacknowledged and perhaps even forgotten. So I don’t mind the occasional argument. And they are only very occasional as far as I can see. O’Bloke ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this group?  Unkindness is not supportive. Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the very best.  Find the love. Virginia <who used to sing you songs> ___________________________________________________________ Sea Escape        by Virginia Lee Let’s  walk into the ocean And disappear from the world Dive down beneath the waves Where life is not so cruel We’ll look back on the days Of our lives among men And we’ll sing many songs Of decadence and sins Then we’ll smile to ourselves And be Sad

Response:

Dear Virginia, *HUG* to you for caring about ASL.  Please ignore the ripples, the ocean of caring people is still here Caroline *** Life is mostly froth and bubble. Two things stand like stone: Kindness in another’s trouble Courage in your own.                 Al Gordon Virginia B heeft geschreven in bericht <361adad…@news-out2.newsnerds.com>… :I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to :truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. : :I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this :group?  Unkindness is not supportive. : aul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… : :I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the :very best.  Find the love. : :Virginia :<who used to sing you songs> :___________________________________________________________ : :Sea Escape :       by Virginia Lee : :Let’s  walk into the ocean :And disappear from the world ive down beneath the waves :Where life is not so cruel :We’ll look back on the days :Of our lives among men :And we’ll sing many songs :Of decadence and sins :Then we’ll smile to ourselves :And be :Sad : :

Response:

In article <361adad…@news-out2.newsnerds.com>,   "Virginia B" <vale…@watervalley.net> wrote: > I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to > truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults.

I think these things probably always did occur to some extent. But although I don’t have time these days to read all the posts, I feel very differently about the group – in fact I have an opposite impression. When I first joined, or shortly afterwards, there was what is sometimes referred to as a "flame war". People ended up saying things to each other which were not only gratuitously nasty but also absurd. I’m not going to point any fingers because I was in there too. There was a strong feeling that to be an active (i.e. posting) member of the group you had to align yourself with one or another warring "camp", even if you didn’t particularly want to. These days, however, I doubt if ANYONE who posts on the group identifies with a "camp" or a "side" any more. Group members will inevitably relate better to certain people whom they have known longer or feel they can identify with more, but still, my overall impression is that this group is friendlier, more harmonious and less fragmented than I’ve ever known it to be, and also more relaxed and open to prospective "de-lurkers". Occasionally there will be arguments, bouts of bad temper, misunderstandings and touchiness but so what? If we were all models of politeness, calmness, self-restraint and exquisite good manners, and had enviable social skills we wouldn’t perhaps be lonely and have come here in the first place! As far as I’m concerned, as long as people are themselves and don’t try to control others, that’s all fine by me. I have a tendency to suffer from violent mood swings and often say things I regret later: a group that never departed from the norm of frigid politeness would be inhibiting to someone like me. Be honest, sometimes it’s comforting to see other people lose their rag as well as oneself!:) > I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this > group?  Unkindness is not supportive.

No, but putting on an act isn’t either, in the long run. Let’s just all relax and be ourselves? I think that’s what people like to see. it seems to have worked pretty well up to now… > Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… > I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the > very best.  Find the love.

As far as I’m concerned all these people have been following your advice for a long time now, and long may they continue to do so:) > Virginia > <who used to sing you songs>

Please keep singing them! Best wishes Ordinary Bloke ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

me too *HUG* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -aret wrote in message <361e26c8.106741…@news.mindspring.com>… >?????? >denise >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:03:05 -0500, "Virginia B" ><vale…@watervalley.net> wrote: >>I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to >>truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. >>I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this >>group?  Unkindness is not supportive. >>Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… >>I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the >>very best.  Find the love. >>Virginia >><who used to sing you songs> >>___________________________________________________________ >>Sea Escape >>       by Virginia Lee >>Let’s  walk into the ocean >>And disappear from the world >>Dive down beneath the waves >>Where life is not so cruel >>We’ll look back on the days >>Of our lives among men >>And we’ll sing many songs >>Of decadence and sins >>Then we’ll smile to ourselves >>And be >>Sad

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Virginia B wrote: > I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to > truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. > I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this > group?  Unkindness is not supportive. > Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… > I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the > very best.  Find the love. > Virginia > <who used to sing you songs> > ___________________________________________________________ > Sea Escape >        by Virginia Lee > Let’s  walk into the ocean > And disappear from the world > Dive down beneath the waves > Where life is not so cruel > We’ll look back on the days > Of our lives among men > And we’ll sing many songs > Of decadence and sins > Then we’ll smile to ourselves > And be > Sad

      Virginia,   I am here. I care. I don’t want you to leave… gets out some handcuffs…, no, wait a minute… someone might get the wrong impression…   please stay!                  John II

Response:

Hi Obloke, Virginia, Mike Brady, Chloe and all! Well met, Virgina! Let me invite you to be more confident in ASL. Our group is especially OK nowadays. I see here a lot of supportive posts. Welcome, Mike! So, Chloe has caused your de-lurking today, very well! In article <361b0e4…@news.newsfeeds.com>, thread "Hey you!", Mike Brady <mikebr…@spacey.net> wrote:

M>I’ve seen some sweet, sweet, beautiful spirits communicating back M>and forth in this ng: Chloe, Robin, Jan, Thomas Speybroek, Gina, Ric, M>Caroline, Brad, Denise — I could go on and on with the names of all M>of you who already seem like dear friends to me. So, just today, another poster took a chance for delurking, showing a totally different feeling on how this NG works. If you have specific criticism towards one or more posters, why don’t you address directly to them, telling what’s wrong? Your words seem to involve the whole ASL. Also Obloke is right, the group is better now than when he entered. My experience is similar to his own. Let me comment further… In article <6vfg4u$i0…@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Obloke <obl…@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >In article <361adad…@news-out2.newsnerds.com>, >  "Virginia B" <vale…@watervalley.net> wrote: >> I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer seem to >> truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at imagined insults. >I think these things probably always did occur to some extent. But although I >don’t have time these days to read all the posts, I feel very differently >about the group – in fact I have an opposite impression. When I first joined, >or shortly afterwards, there was what is sometimes referred to as a "flame >war". People ended up saying things to each other which were not only >gratuitously nasty but also absurd. I’m not going to point any fingers >because I was in there too.

I’ve joined ASL at the end of May, a couple of weeks earlier than you, and I’ve found a division in camps, with people who clearly seemed to have chosen either side. I wrote messages dealing openly with that problem. I didn’t join the fight at the time. But I’ve happened to be involved later, when you was already there. And Obloke, I don’t remember you saying anything nasty, let aside absurd. >There was a strong feeling that to be an active (i.e. posting) member of the group >you had to align yourself with one or another warring "camp", even if you didn’t >particularly want to. >These days, however, I doubt if ANYONE who posts on the group identifies with >a "camp" or a "side" any more. Group members will inevitably relate better to >certain people whom they have known longer or feel they can identify with >more, but still, my overall impression is that this group is friendlier, more >harmonious and less fragmented than I’ve ever known it to be, and also more >relaxed and open to prospective "de-lurkers".

I concur, and in fact there is now a close cooperation in building the site of ASL and creating the FAQ, among some regulars who wasn’t in the same camp. That division is now obsolete. >Occasionally there will be arguments, bouts of bad temper, misunderstandings >and touchiness but so what? If we were all models of politeness, calmness, >self-restraint and exquisite good manners, and had enviable social skills we >wouldn’t perhaps be lonely and have come here in the first place! As far as >I’m concerned, as long as people are themselves and don’t try to control >others, that’s all fine by me. I have a tendency to suffer from violent mood >swings and often say things I regret later: a group that never departed from >the norm of frigid politeness would be inhibiting to someone like me. Be >honest, sometimes it’s comforting to see other people lose their rag as well >as oneself!:)

It is in fact reasonable to have a chance to express bad feelings as well as the good ones, without being too concerned about being criticized for doing so. And we should expect, for the very same act of posting, that some answers will not agree with what we said. Occasionally, too, an angry reply will be got. We cannot deceive ourselves with the idea of a shelter where the protection is total and nothing wrong can happen. Rather, trying to not get dramatic and chat, discuss or even argue, in a civil way, well this is possible. This a NG, with all the pros and the cons of every other NG. Different, safer than others maybe. But still a NG. Virginia, if you still don’t like a specific thread or topic or anything, you’ll find anyway a lot of posts you may appreciate for their supportivity. Besides, there are the ML of ASL. Care to join? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I ask you all to please consider that you are defeating the purpose of this >> group?  Unkindness is not supportive. >No, but putting on an act isn’t either, in the long run. Let’s just all relax >and be ourselves? I think that’s what people like to see. it seems to have >worked pretty well up to now… >> Paul, Viktor, Nicholas, Gina, Chloe and all the rest of you… >> I send you my love.  Be kind to each other.  Please.  You all deserve the >> very best.  Find the love. >As far as I’m concerned all these people have been following your advice for a >long time now, and long may they continue to do so:) >> Virginia >> <who used to sing you songs> >Please keep singing them!

Yes, keep singing Virginia, don’t worry! Take it easily! >Best wishes >Ordinary Bloke

– All the best                     Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

Hi all raffa…@my-dejanews.com wrote in message

<6vggf8$i7…@nnrp1.dejanews.com>… >Hi Obloke, Virginia, Mike Brady, Chloe and all! >Well met, Virginia! Let me invite you to be more confident in ASL. Our >group is especially OK nowadays. I see here a lot of supportive posts.

I second this positive outlook… please take another look, Virginia… for I think you are not seeing the love and caring all around this place these days… perhaps some one or few people have offended you?… >Welcome, Mike! So, Chloe has caused your de-lurking today, very well!

yes, Hi Mike… hope my welcome wasn’t too rambling for ya – Chloe brings out the babbler in me >In article <361b0e4…@news.newsfeeds.com>, thread "Hey you!", >Mike Brady <mikebr…@spacey.net> wrote: >M>I’ve seen some sweet, sweet, beautiful spirits communicating back >M>and forth in this ng: Chloe, Robin, Jan, Thomas Speybroek, Gina, >M>Ric, >M>Caroline, Brad, Denise — I could go on and on with the names of all >M>of you who already seem like dear friends to me. >So, just today, another poster took a chance for delurking, showing a >totally different feeling on how this NG works.

this is a good point Raff… and Celebok thanked us for all the support we gave him… and denise was feeling wonderful about Jan’s post to her… and there are dozens of other examples to see of positive support all around the group… *HUG* for you dear Virginia, please don’t be down >If you have specific criticism towards one or more posters, why don’t you >address directly to them, telling what’s wrong? Your words seem to >involve the whole ASL.

this is a fair request, as I was surprised myself to see anyone see ASL as a negative place… if I too have missed something in my browsing through posts, please let me know… it is possible, being that I am used to the Usenet and accept that some people stir up trouble by being negative and playing games for attention, that it is easier for me to ignore such childish behaviours… please give us another look, Virginia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Also Obloke is right, the group is better now than when he entered. My >experience is similar to his own. >Let me comment further… >In article <6vfg4u$i0…@nnrp1.dejanews.com> >Obloke <obl…@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >>In article <361adad…@news-out2.newsnerds.com>, >>  "Virginia B" <vale…@watervalley.net> wrote: >>> I am confused by this group.  It has changed and people no longer >>>seem to truly care any more.  Preaching occurs or snippiness at >>>imagined insults. >>I think these things probably always did occur to some extent. But >>although I don’t have time these days to read all the posts, I feel

very >>differently about the group – in fact I have an opposite impression. >>When I first joined, or shortly afterwards, there was what is sometimes >>referred to as a "flame war". People ended up saying things to each >>other which were not only gratuitously nasty but also absurd. I’m not >>going to point any fingers because I was in there too. >I’ve joined ASL at the end of May, a couple of weeks earlier than you, >and I’ve found a division in camps, with people who clearly seemed to >have chosen either side. I wrote messages dealing openly with that >problem. I didn’t join the fight at the time. But I’ve happened to be >involved later, when you was already there. And Obloke, I don’t >remember you saying anything nasty, let aside absurd.

the real question I’d like answered is – what happened today or this week to give Virginia the impression she seems to have… I hope you aren’t fooled by the games some might play there’s plenty of people caring right here today just look at the responses you have received how can a negative view be believed?… perhaps you are down and something specific keeps you from seeing this newsgroup’s terrific? hope you see our concern for your concern is true and you let some of this love get through to you >>There was a strong feeling that to be an active (i.e. posting) member

of >>the group you had to align yourself with one or another warring "camp", >>even if you didn’t particularly want to. >>These days, however, I doubt if ANYONE who posts on the group >>identifies with a "camp" or a "side" any more. Group members will >>inevitably relate better to certain people whom they have known longer >>or feel they can identify with more, but still, my overall impression

is >>that this group is friendlier, more harmonious and less fragmented than >>I’ve ever known it to be, and also more relaxed and open to >>prospective "de-lurkers". >I concur, and in fact there is now a close cooperation in building the site >of ASL and creating the FAQ, among some regulars who wasn’t in the >same camp. That division is now obsolete.

this is true as well from my perspective… there will always be people so unhappy with their lives or themselves that they nitpick and complain and moan and groan and act like they have major PMS (no offense to the women) or prostrate trouble (no offense to the men)… we’ve learned to ignore them… some are what’s called trolls… people who look for peaceful, happy newsgroups that they might "disturb"… they try to provoke arguments with negativity… or they cry foul when there is no foul… similar to what you were saying, Virginia, if I understand you (please correct me if I misread your words… I don’t want to assume I know what you were meaning)… sometimes it comes from people we know and care about due to personal problems they bring here without realizing it… in both cases it’s usually attention seeking behaviour that has roots in low self esteem or some desire to be loved and accepted more – because, as you said, they imagine insults… it’s sometimes paranoia… but try to explain to someone that they are acting paranoid and they often cry insult and say you are out to get them (ironic, huh? >>Occasionally there will be arguments, bouts of bad temper, >>misunderstandings and touchiness but so what? If we were all models >>of politeness, calmness, self-restraint and exquisite good manners, >>and had enviable social skills we wouldn’t perhaps be lonely and have >>come here in the first place! As far as I’m concerned, as long as >>people are themselves and don’t try to control others, that’s all fine

by >>me. I have a tendency to suffer from violent mood swings and often say >>things I regret later: a group that never departed from the norm of frigid >>politeness would be inhibiting to someone like me. Be honest, >>sometimes it’s comforting to see other people lose their rag as well >>as oneself!:)

I agree completely OB and you have expresse yourself eloquently here and I want to thank you for it… this is a support group… kind of like free-form group therapy… most of us come here not fully intact… broken hearts… wounded psyches… fragile spirits… lost souls… and confused by the unfair loneliness we often feel trapped in… it would be unhealthy to pretend we have no issues to work through, or to pretend it will be easy… it would be utopian to think we could really help each other resolve fears and angers and deep rooted issues that lead to our loneliness without bumping heads from time to time… we’re human, not robots who can conform to some rulebook (or FAQ even I feel it’s wonderful here now compared to the way it was during the summer… and I thank you for giving us a chance to introspect a bit about ourselves as a group… by the way, are you ever called Gina?… I just associated the names because she seemed to think you see the same thing she sees and I was wondering, that’s now what I gathered from your posts… perhaps you will decide to stay when you are through thinking? >It is in fact reasonable to have a chance to express bad feelings as

well >as the good ones, without being too concerned about being criticized >for doing so. And we should expect, for the very same act of posting, >that some answers will not agree with what we said. Occasionally, too, >an angry reply will be got. We cannot deceive ourselves with the idea of >a shelter where the protection is total and nothing wrong can happen. >Rather, trying to not get dramatic and chat, discuss or even argue, in a >civil way, well this is possible. sometimes we need to RAGE!!!… tha’s healthy… one man comes home from work and finds out his wife of 10 years is packed and leaving with a man she met a week before… another woman is tryng to understand how she could have stayed with a man for ten or twenty years when he got drunk and beat her every week, or more… another is afraid of intimacy because she was sexually abused from age 6-15… another is hiding in the dark room for years because he no longer believes he’s worth anything to anybody due to some severe physical limitations… some are lucky, we’re just heartbroken… and we need time to go through the steps of healing… denial… rage and anger… acceptance… there’s no easy way to heal… and some can not heal some scars, but must learn to live with the constant frustration without constant anger… we need the security of friends – and the freedom to be ourselves… that is what true support is… and some of us are very angry and we don’t even know it ourselves, but it shows in our actions/words… we need to help each other get real and stop playing games… sometimes the way to do that is through direct confrontation – and that isn’t always pretty to watch – no less to go through… sometimes the way is to ignore the negative behaviours… and that often makes the person seeking attention escalate the provocative and sometimes subtle manipulations for attention… we need to recognize we are all capable of this to some extent… and then trust in each other enough to believe we might be wrong when someone suggests we are wrong… and not consider that an insult or a put down, but consider it a helping hand… or at worst, … read more »

Response:

Amsterdam, October 7. 1998 H

Filed under: Fight Loneliness

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