Lonely Loneliness

raffaelel…PLEASE LEAVE

Question:

In article <u7IYelOQ$GA.327@cpmsnbbsa04>,   "Unicorn" <Unicorn_4_Ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: > meet halfway and duke it out.. > Not in the US and not in Italy..

I suggest the middle of the Altantic, maybe aboard a UN ship. Arf! Arf! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I suggest in 8 feet of water, with 16 pound sledge hammers… raffaele has already been invited to my home, so we might discuss his abusive, harmful behavior, against this group, against my friends, and in his usual, cowardly, predatory manner, against those that were not able to protect themselves…                              Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <82m4bo$fa…@nnrp1.deja.com>, raffa…@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <u7IYelOQ$GA.327@cpmsnbbsa04>, >  "Unicorn" <Unicorn_4_Ma…@yahoo.com> wrote: >> meet halfway and duke it out.. >> Not in the US and not in Italy.. >I suggest the middle of the Altantic, >maybe aboard a UN ship. >Arf! Arf! >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

Response:

Broccoli. In article <82h6uc$2jo_…@news.earthlink.net>,   maddo…@earthlink.net (Maddogg) wrote: > No who is making light, and ridiculing those that > have the wisdom, and the courage, to seek some > counseling for problems they have a difficult time > dealing with? > Why it is you, raffaele, the biggest abuser, and > offender this group has ever had the misfortune > to have to endure… > Have you no conscience, or compassion?… No > need to answer this one either, as your callous > words, your unethical actions, and your abusive > behavior, answers it for you…

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <82j2si$81…@nnrp1.deja.com>,   nOBody <obl…@my-deja.com> wrote: > In article <19991206192132.13411.00000…@ng-cf1.aol.com>, >   gina…@aol.com (Gina) wrote:

 <snip> What surprises me is that you keep taking her seriously. I thank you for your earlier post, but I see no point in replying to her any further. Killfile, and it’s over. OTOH, your post is well-written and interesting per se, so I go through and advise the other readers to do so. > I don’t require that people who write to me > have to be constantly "supportive". I expect > you don’t really, either. > The point I was making is a more general one: > we don’t really "know" the people who post on > this forum half as well as we think we do.

Agree. In some cases we can make some reasonable guesses though. That she is mentally sick is the simplest explanation for her absurd behaviour. Those who support her in this nonsense and try to validate the "truth" coming from their delire must be equally sick, or stupid, or hypocrite. Any combination of the three is also possible. My opinion only, but I hope that you’ll find it reasonable. > We know nothing about their lives except what > they choose to tell us, and our assessment of their > character can only be from the words written… > and given the artificiality of the medium and the > fact that most people on NGs write constantly with > an eye to the wider public, and also the fact that on > a loneliness forum many people are timidly showing an > unexplored side of themselves that may not be too > evident or important IRL… well, we tend to get a > very distorted picture. That’s why I think we cannot > afford to get too personal. > Courtesy and the presumption of innocence and good > intentions must prevail, and it should be the WORDS > we address, not our own imaginary idea of the person > behind them.

The bottom line is that anybody can believe that another poster is a monster (two pretty similar words after all). What is questionable is their trying to "prove" it to others, basing their accusations on thin air. > Maybe Raffaele has not been "supportive" to you > (is this surprising?) but he has been to others > – this is fact.

I’ve been supportive to her, and under a minor extent also to Harvey in the past. The both of them have shown to be ungrateful wretches, though I pity more Gina because I see how she can’t be held accountable for her actions. I don’t expect gratitude from those I try to help, but their backstabbing is beyond disgusting, and I would be equally disgusted if they choose another target. I doubt that any support coming from me (or perhaps others in this group) can heal her. The best advice I could give, if I was still speaking to that one, would be the following: 1. turn off your PC, next 2. call your psy, next 3. ask your money back. > Best wishes > OB

– All the best                     Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <944604115.108…@Chaos.es.co.nz>,   Your Guru Here = Harvey wrote: > Some people thought the Swiss banks were a good thing, > but negative people can take advantage of that.

I wonder about the very concept of a "negative person". In case there is a sensible definition, next problem is how to detect one. I assume that some tests may be compiled (scientifically of course). Whatever are the questions posed to the candidates, what matters is the *sign*. Some will give positive points and some negative. At last, summing up all of them we’ll get a positive or negative number (unless it’s zero – I’ll return on this later). Negative people are those with negative indicator, positive the others. At this point, it suffices to make it official, and have documents to attest this fact. All Swiss banks have to do is to hire positive individuals only. The negative ones will probably be sent to post to some newsgroups. As to zero, this will be the most unhappy case. Not good enough to be entitled to a good work to a Swiss bank, or any banks for that matter, they will be looked down by the genuine, repulsive negative people. Is there a place for them? I suggest to collect some money to create a shelter to host and take care for the ZIPs (Zero Integrity People). Xmas is coming. Nobody has to be forgotten. Not even the the poor, neutral ZIPs. Have punsitivity! Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> — All the best                     Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

People do know who are genuinely supportive to them, and can see through any crap which is not. And vice versa, people know when they are fed crap – something not genuine and smarty – in most cases. We lean towards certain people and shy away from others. No one can mix with everybody to the same degree. You are certainly special if you can do that. I’m not talking about being neutral – nice idea maybe? But I don’t think it works. Some people thought the Swiss banks were a good thing, but negative people can take advantage of that. And in the news we hear that the Swiss Bank(s) looked after themselves – kept money, to which they were not entitled to. Greed is such a bad thing, in whatever form. Harvey In article <82j2si$81…@nnrp1.deja.com>, obl…@my-deja.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article <19991206192132.13411.00000…@ng-cf1.aol.com>, >  gina…@aol.com (Gina) wrote: ><snip> >>I find it impossible to see >> any semblance of support in the messages he sent to me. >I don’t require that people who write to me have to be constantly >"supportive". I expect you don’t really, either. The point I was making >is a more general one: we don’t really "know" the people who post on >this forum half as well as we think we do. We know nothing about their >lives except what they choose to tell us, and our assessment of their >character can only be from the words written… and given the >artificiality of the medium and the fact that most people on NGs write >constantly with an eye to the wider public, and also the fact that on a >loneliness forum many people are timidly showing an unexplored side of >themselves that may not be too evident or important IRL… well, we tend >to get a very distorted picture. That’s why I think we cannot afford to >get too personal. Courtesy and the presumption of innocence and good >intentions must prevail, and it should be the WORDS we address, not our >own imaginary idea of the person behind them. Maybe Raffaele has not >been "supportive" to you (is this surprising?) but he has been to others >- this is fact. >Best wishes >OB >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

Response:

Perhaps it would be best if you and Raf, meet halfway and duke it out.. Not in the US and not in Italy.. then it would be over.. and we could go back to giving support to those who need it and not always be on the edge of *hate* Please consider settling this like men.. <or whatever>.. or ignoring each other like woman do.. <or whatever> Is their an alt.hate.support newsgroup you both can join or something if you can’t afford to fly to fight bare fisted and keep it off of a loneliness group.. Pamela "Maddogg" <maddo…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:82h6uc$2jo_004@news.earthlink.net…

Response:

nobody wrote:

<snip> >Gina needs to mind her own business and learn to >live and let live.

And I suggest you take your own advice. Gina

Response:

In article <19991206192132.13411.00000…@ng-cf1.aol.com>,   gina…@aol.com (Gina) wrote: <snip> >I find it impossible to see > any semblance of support in the messages he sent to me.

I don’t require that people who write to me have to be constantly "supportive". I expect you don’t really, either. The point I was making is a more general one: we don’t really "know" the people who post on this forum half as well as we think we do. We know nothing about their lives except what they choose to tell us, and our assessment of their character can only be from the words written… and given the artificiality of the medium and the fact that most people on NGs write constantly with an eye to the wider public, and also the fact that on a loneliness forum many people are timidly showing an unexplored side of themselves that may not be too evident or important IRL… well, we tend to get a very distorted picture. That’s why I think we cannot afford to get too personal. Courtesy and the presumption of innocence and good intentions must prevail, and it should be the WORDS we address, not our own imaginary idea of the person behind them. Maybe Raffaele has not been "supportive" to you (is this surprising?) but he has been to others – this is fact. Best wishes OB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

No who is making light, and ridiculing those that have the wisdom, and the courage, to seek some counseling for problems they have a difficult time dealing with? Why it is you, raffaele, the biggest abuser, and offender this group has ever had the misfortune to have to endure… Have you no conscience, or compassion?… No need to answer this one either, as your callous words, your unethical actions, and your abusive behavior, answers it for you…                             Michael In article <82h51m$sj…@nnrp1.deja.com>, raffa…@my-deja.com wrote:

<raffaele’s insensitive, abusive troll garbage snipped>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Gina, this silliness has got to stop. Enough is enough. You’ve made your >point – I think everyone is now aware that you don’t like Raffaele. It’s >not really fair that you should go on and on about his allegedly "sordid >past", while relying on the goodwill and forbearance of other posters to >refrain from mentioning, in the interests of peace, some of your own >rather less than splendid past "contributions" to this group. Many, if >not all of us have posted rashly and in the heat of the moment – it’s >really no big deal, providing there is a mature attitude and a >willingness to move on. Think of the lonely people at this time of year >who seek understanding and comfort – do they really need to come here >and listen to this ranting? All it takes is a determination to be >positive. As has been said many times before, if you don’t like someone, >don’t read them. Raffaele has no doubt upset a few people in the past – >sometimes under provocation of the kind we have been seeing recently… >so, for that matter, have I, and so have you. The talent to post >regularly and frequently without upsetting anyone is given to few. All >NGs have personality clashes. But it’s not as if we were all sharing a >prison cell together. Through the marvels of modern technology, we have >the freedom not to read people we decide (preferably without help >from officious third parties) that we don’t like. We can block out their >words from our eyes and from our mailboxes. To imagine that your own >personal dislike and a handful of distorted scraps of "evidence" justify >your attempting to influence the freedom of others to decide who to read >or not, and who to trust or not, is arrogance of the worst and most >dangerous kind. And to imagine that one has a right to ask someone to >leave a public, unmoderated NG is, well, simply breathtaking. You >frequently talk of "exposing" the faults of others. It appears to be >almost an obsession. Personally, I think that if you start with the >premise that nobody is perfect, but that there is hidden goodness to be >found in anyone, it might appear to be more positive and in keeping with >the spirit of this group if we spent less time "exposing" people’s >alleged faults or crimes (such as an irreverent sense of humour which >might lead a person to joke about "taking over" or "destroying" a NG, >where that person perhaps foolishly counts on the intelligence of his >readers to detect the implicit irony) – and more time seeking to >"expose" the goodness which is here, in abundance. >In keeping with this more positive approach, I would like to state >publicly that I am glad Raffaele is here, because this is a support >group and Raffaele does support people (when he is allowed to, i.e. when >he is not defending himself against hate campaigns) rather well – >certainly better than me, in any case. I would also like to state that >if what people seek is the truth, as some have said, rather than some >convenient simplification, this "truth" would have to include those >occasions when various people on this group have been offered real, >practical and meaningful help by Raffaele, through their mailboxes and >by other private means, without any hint of ensuing self-publicity. I >will say no more so as not to embarrass him… only that it is not >always the people who shout the loudest who deserve the most attention. >Best wishes >OB

Hey OB….I agree that it has to stop….but I disagree that it is silliness. Yes…I have made mistakes in the past…and I was sincerely remorseful for those mistakes. You sing praises of raff’s support…and in e-mail.  Well, OB….I once corresponded with raff via e-mail, and all I got was messages about his hatred for Jae and Michael, and how he wanted to discredit them and get rid of them, and how I could be queen of ASL, blah, blah,blah.  Perhaps you and I have different perceptions as to what support is…..but I find it impossible to see any semblance of support in the messages he sent to me.   Are we forgetting the ASL forum, where he very vocally voiced his desire to discredit me….and they even made plans to lay a trap for me.   Do you call this support ?  Am I supposed to forget all of this ?  You see…..it isn’t so much the things raff did under the guise of Lerei …. It is the deceit and trickery behind the scenes that case me to feel the way I do.  Also…please tell me when you have ever seen raff come to ASL and seen peace prevail at the same time ?   As I’ve said before, he can do quite well for a very short period of time….but then he reverts back to his taunting and ridicule.   Why do you think raff is in ASL, OB ?  I would really like to know your thoughts on this, and ask you to consider the things I have written above before you repy.   It isn’t just one or two incidences that you are asking me to sweep under the rug and pretend that they didn’t happen….It is numerous things he has done and continues to do.   At any rate….Once again, I agree….It has to stop and that is why I have finally placed raff in my killfile….and I do feel somewhat liberated….I will not allow him to anger me any further…..I will not read his words anymore.  I finally did realize that it wasn’t all that necessary for me to make sure people know what he is like….He always does it himself….no matter how hard he tries to hide it. I respect your decision to befriend raff, and I hope you will respect my decision to ignore him. Gina "May you always know the truth, And see the lights surrounding you… May you always be courageous, Stand upright and be strong…"             —Bob Dylan

Response:

I don’t know if Harvey is cruel or just plain stupid. Both, I guess. I’ve already had some doubts when he harassed a women having suicidary problems (in alt.suicide.holyday), and kept offending the people of that group. Now, since he "seconds" the motion, this means that he has put me in his killfile and will no longer read my posts. I keep record of this. We will see if he will keep his word, or what sort of excuse will he find to break it. It is only fair to treat him as he treats the others. In article <944425168.613…@Chaos.es.co.nz>,   Harvey the guru wrote: > I will second the motion. > We shouldn’t have to do this at all, but when someone > crosses that line, you can’t let him/it/whatever change > this NG to one of darkness. > Some people deserve a second chance, others don’t. > This person doesn’t. > Time to turn on the light, and let truth shine the way for all of us.

<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Dear Mr. X, now that she has promised to totally ignore me, we may just see if she will keep her word. I guess that, as she always finds pretexts to pick for a fight, so she will for breaking her word. She is an abuser, and reasonable people have better to stay away from her. You’re right when complaining about this mess, but the only way to deal with it is the above. In article <7SA24.866$I86.8…@news.rdc1.il.home.com>,   "Mr X" <M…@xxxx.com> wrote: > But, isn’t it time to just drop this whole thing? > Aren’t you getting sick of talking about it?

<snip> — All the best                     Raffaele <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

First, please understand that I am in no way attacking you, or this Raff person or anyone associated with that whole mess.  But, isn’t it time to just drop this whole thing?  Aren’t you getting sick of talking about it? You guys have been posting about this for months!  I would venture to guess that a majority of users here, save a few, do not even know what you’re talking about.  These same people also probably do not want to scroll down through the messages and see that 1/3 – 1/2 half of them belong to you, ‘Maddogg’ and ‘Raffaele’ all arguing with each other.  Plese do this in your own private e-mails- and spare the rest of us from having to sort through your messages to read ones from those who are actually using this group for the way it is meant to be used. Thank you, Mr X

Response:

Gina, this silliness has got to stop. Enough is enough. You’ve made your point – I think everyone is now aware that you don’t like Raffaele. It’s not really fair that you should go on and on about his allegedly "sordid past", while relying on the goodwill and forbearance of other posters to refrain from mentioning, in the interests of peace, some of your own rather less than splendid past "contributions" to this group. Many, if not all of us have posted rashly and in the heat of the moment – it’s really no big deal, providing there is a mature attitude and a willingness to move on. Think of the lonely people at this time of year who seek understanding and comfort – do they really need to come here and listen to this ranting? All it takes is a determination to be positive. As has been said many times before, if you don’t like someone, don’t read them. Raffaele has no doubt upset a few people in the past – sometimes under provocation of the kind we have been seeing recently… so, for that matter, have I, and so have you. The talent to post regularly and frequently without upsetting anyone is given to few. All NGs have personality clashes. But it’s not as if we were all sharing a prison cell together. Through the marvels of modern technology, we have the freedom not to read people we decide (preferably without help from officious third parties) that we don’t like. We can block out their words from our eyes and from our mailboxes. To imagine that your own personal dislike and a handful of distorted scraps of "evidence" justify your attempting to influence the freedom of others to decide who to read or not, and who to trust or not, is arrogance of the worst and most dangerous kind. And to imagine that one has a right to ask someone to leave a public, unmoderated NG is, well, simply breathtaking. You frequently talk of "exposing" the faults of others. It appears to be almost an obsession. Personally, I think that if you start with the premise that nobody is perfect, but that there is hidden goodness to be found in anyone, it might appear to be more positive and in keeping with the spirit of this group if we spent less time "exposing" people’s alleged faults or crimes (such as an irreverent sense of humour which might lead a person to joke about "taking over" or "destroying" a NG, where that person perhaps foolishly counts on the intelligence of his readers to detect the implicit irony) – and more time seeking to "expose" the goodness which is here, in abundance. In keeping with this more positive approach, I would like to state publicly that I am glad Raffaele is here, because this is a support group and Raffaele does support people (when he is allowed to, i.e. when he is not defending himself against hate campaigns) rather well – certainly better than me, in any case. I would also like to state that if what people seek is the truth, as some have said, rather than some convenient simplification, this "truth" would have to include those occasions when various people on this group have been offered real, practical and meaningful help by Raffaele, through their mailboxes and by other private means, without any hint of ensuing self-publicity. I will say no more so as not to embarrass him… only that it is not always the people who shout the loudest who deserve the most attention. Best wishes OB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Dear Mr. X….. Sorry you have been inconvenienced.  I have tried to always make sure my subject line indicates what my message refers to.  I do agree that it is getting rather tiring to have to grapple with this seemingly neverending disruption of ASL.  You’re also right that probably many of the users here have no idea of the harm raff can do….and that is the "only" reason I say anything at all about him.  He is quite effective in his e-mail campaigns…..and he is eaten alive with anger and hatred towards a few of us here in ASL.  At any rate….I will certainly try harder to make sure the subject matter of my messages are very clear, and that way you won’t have to wade through messages in which you have no interest.  I’m sure it must be irritating and I do apologize to you. Smiles, Gina "May you always know the truth, And see the lights surrounding you… May you always be courageous, Stand upright and be strong…"             —Bob Dylan

Response:

Yes, I second the motion.  Gina needs to mind her own business and learn to live and let live. Also: Dear OBloke…..{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}} and my sincere gratitude and admiration for speaking the total truth here……for being strong and standing up for what is right. When I read messages which reflect such courage and caring, I realize there is still much hope for us. and Thank you, OBloke….for expressing it all so very well.  I agree with you, and am thankful that we have you to be able to put into words the thoughts that I have a big problem being able to write.  <smile> We are very fortunate to have you. {I’ve got about 2 other versions of those.  I’ll use them later, until you and everyone else is sick to death of reading them.} Hugs and Smiles, NMB (copyrighted, 1999) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nOBody wrote: > Gina, this silliness has got to stop. Enough is enough. You’ve made your > point – I think everyone is now aware that you don’t like Raffaele. It’s > not really fair that you should go on and on about his allegedly "sordid > past", while relying on the goodwill and forbearance of other posters to > refrain from mentioning, in the interests of peace, some of your own > rather less than splendid past "contributions" to this group. Many, if > not all of us have posted rashly and in the heat of the moment – it’s > really no big deal, providing there is a mature attitude and a > willingness to move on. Think of the lonely people at this time of year > who seek understanding and comfort – do they really need to come here > and listen to this ranting? All it takes is a determination to be > positive. As has been said many times before, if you don’t like someone, > don’t read them. Raffaele has no doubt upset a few people in the past – > sometimes under provocation of the kind we have been seeing recently… > so, for that matter, have I, and so have you. The talent to post > regularly and frequently without upsetting anyone is given to few. All > NGs have personality clashes. But it’s not as if we were all sharing a > prison cell together. Through the marvels of modern technology, we have > the freedom not to read people we decide (preferably without help > from officious third parties) that we don’t like. We can block out their > words from our eyes and from our mailboxes. To imagine that your own > personal dislike and a handful of distorted scraps of "evidence" justify > your attempting to influence the freedom of others to decide who to read > or not, and who to trust or not, is arrogance of the worst and most > dangerous kind. And to imagine that one has a right to ask someone to > leave a public, unmoderated NG is, well, simply breathtaking. You > frequently talk of "exposing" the faults of others. It appears to be > almost an obsession. Personally, I think that if you start with the > premise that nobody is perfect, but that there is hidden goodness to be > found in anyone, it might appear to be more positive and in keeping with > the spirit of this group if we spent less time "exposing" people’s > alleged faults or crimes (such as an irreverent sense of humour which > might lead a person to joke about "taking over" or "destroying" a NG, > where that person perhaps foolishly counts on the intelligence of his > readers to detect the implicit irony) – and more time seeking to > "expose" the goodness which is here, in abundance. > In keeping with this more positive approach, I would like to state > publicly that I am glad Raffaele is here, because this is a support > group and Raffaele does support people (when he is allowed to, i.e. when > he is not defending himself against hate campaigns) rather well – > certainly better than me, in any case. I would also like to state that > if what people seek is the truth, as some have said, rather than some > convenient simplification, this "truth" would have to include those > occasions when various people on this group have been offered real, > practical and meaningful help by Raffaele, through their mailboxes and > by other private means, without any hint of ensuing self-publicity. I > will say no more so as not to embarrass him… only that it is not > always the people who shout the loudest who deserve the most attention. > Best wishes > OB > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

  ——–== Posted Anonymously via Newsfeeds.Com ==——-      Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server     ———–== http://www.newsfeeds.com ==———-

Response:

Hi NMB and all the good people of ASL! In article <384B8A47.CCE5E…@any.com>, NMB (copyrighted) <nob…@newsfeeds.com> spake the Truth, at the top of his wisdom and with very much eloquency, and integrity, and intelligence, and… OK, you’ve got the picture. > Yes, I second the motion.

) > Gina needs to mind her own business and learn to > live and let live.

I’m afraid that she can’t. That one needs professional help. However, his last three or four psychiatrists committed suicide. There is some shortage right now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Also: > Dear OBloke…..{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}} and my > sincere gratitude and admiration for speaking the total > truth here……for being strong and standing > up for what is right. > When I read messages which reflect such courage and caring, > I realize there is still much hope for us. > and > Thank you, OBloke….for expressing it all so very well. > I agree with you, and am thankful that we have you to be > able to put into words the thoughts that I have a big > problem being able to write.  <smile> > We are very fortunate to have you. > {I’ve got about 2 other versions of those. > I’ll use them later, until you and everyone else > is sick to death of reading them.}

I’ve a slight preference for the latter. <smile> Perhaps because of the nostalgy of a similar statement to compliment the performer of a couple of death threats, when he jumped to the

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