I've decided …

Question:

shit, i don’t know much about you but i know enough to know you’re a naive dweeby little fuck….you actually think that chick had another date??….you never heard of the brush off?? you make stuart smalley look like brad pitt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You built the wall one brick at at time. You’ll have to take it down that >way, too. >– >Brian

Response:

Brian <n…@nowhere.com> wrote in message <news:MPG.1678c1f8a9d5ba029896e8@news.nwlink.com>… > I remember you; you’re the one fixated on recreating your childhood, with > Mom giving you complete and total unconditional love without your having > to work for it.

You must have me mixed up with somebody else. My childhood was utterly horribly lonely, and I considered suicide but was afraid I’d be reincarnated and have to suffer it all over again, and I was promised when I got older (like teenage or adult) things would be better, so I decided to wait it out instead of recyclying. My mother hated me since before I was born. When I suffered an illness so severe I went into a coma while lying in my own bed, my mother didn’t even have the doctor come out to see me and give treatment to prevent brain damage that caused permanent disability. I have never wanted to recreate that horrible situation I suffered!! > … Real relationships take time to build, > and take effort to maintain.

I’ve never had a chance to do that with anyone. Nobody has ever granted me any reasonable amount of time to build our relationship. > When I originally posted this, I was just starting to get out and meet > people. That’s where it all starts, you know… with the very first "hi!" > and then the "small talk" and moving into the more deeper talk about > feelings and emotions,

I did all of that many times, including up to 1.5 hours with one person several times (MarieBeth, Erin, …).. > and then the invitation to talk more some other time,

I never got to that step. For more than two years I’ve been trying to find out how to get to that step but nobody has been willing to help me and I haven’t been able to figure it out all by myself without help. > and all the time evaluating whether or not this person you’re > talking to is worth the time and effort.

I believe Erin would surely be worth my time and effort. I sorta feel like a few others might too. But I don’t have that option because I don’t know how to re-establish communication with them, to ever see any of them again. I believe several gals I have never met in person would also be worth meeting and spending time with, for example Lital, Debi, Janet, SaraBeth, maybe even HeatherT. > … A slim > margin of people said "hi" and engaged me in small talk, and that’s all > the further it went.

So you haven’t yet even achieved what I did two years ago, sigh. I guess you can’t help me at all. But then you contradict that: > And, in a handful of cases, really, just a couple of people… we’re > spending time together and getting to know each other more.

When you say ‘hi’ out of the blue to a total stranger in some public place, how do you ever convince that person to arrange to see you again? (I assume "spending time together" means seeing each other more than once, rather than spending time with one person once then with another person once etc. never seeing the same person a second time, right?) > But, even though I’ve gotten to know only one or two people intimately > out of the thousands I’ve met.

What exactly does the word "intimately" mean as you used it there?? I’d rather not try to guess. I’d rather you just tell me what you mean. > My point of view has changed 180 degrees: where before I saw only my > lack, and viewed people as having this perfect life and if only I could > break through and share in their perfect life… now I see only humans, > with ups and downs and plusses and minuses, and I sift through them to > find the gems.

I never had to make that change of attitude because I never had your former attitude in the first place. Ever since I first thought about the topic, my view has been that there are lonely guys and lonely gals in the world and we need to find each other, not that gals are happy without guys and we can somehow tap into their happiness. Unfortunately I’ve never been able to find any lonely gals looking to meet guys, except gals who live very very far away so we can never meet in person. > … I have to push myself to act in a way that draws > people in. I have to expose myself to potential rejection, and get over > it.

My rejection isn’t potential, it’s real-life history. Every time I’ve made an attempt, I’ve been rejected, sometimes in minor ways (she just ignores me and I have to look to find somebody else), sometimes in major ways (she not only rejects me for herself but stalks me to interfere with any of my attempts to meet anyone else either). > From your comments here, and elsewhere, I seriously doubt that you’ve > achieved that.

Haven’t achieved what? I haven’t achieved starting from saying ‘hi’ to somebody and ending up being able to see them on a regular basis. Only two people I ever got to see a second time, both by accident (they happened to return to approximately the same place I originally met them at a time when I was there too), neither of them a third time. So of course I’ve never progressed past that point to the levels you’ve achieved of taking somebody to a social function and realizing you really want each other. From the starting point of saying ‘hi’ to a total stranger in a public place, I got to 1.5 hour conversations in early 1999 (Apr-Jun) and have made no further progress since then. > What do you have to offer them, as a "Real Life Friend"?

A lot, but I was taught not to "toot my own horn". > Why should someone "let" you be their friend?

Because I’m a good person for them to have in their lives, somebody who can provide them with companionship and affection and lots of variations on that. They’re all fools not to have me as their friend. > If you’ve done this a long time ago, perhaps you need to reevaluate. If > what you’re doing isn’t getting your needs fulfilled, then DO SOMETHING > DIFFERENT. Anything.

I’ve already tried everything I can think of that is reasonable, and even a few unreasonale things like staging sit-ins at counseling centers who owe me services under Medi-Cal but so-far have denied me those services, and even cutting my wrist in front of the receptionist to emphasize how urgently I need their services. There are even more unreasonable things I have so-far refused to try. So-far nobody has proposed anything reasonable to try that I haven’t already tried. Feel free to suggest something if you have any ideas. Be aware that I have no money and I’m not into any addictions such as alcohol or tobacco or organized religion or S&M or B&D, so don’t suggest I go to bars or hand out cigarettes to strangers or go to church or join a sexual perversion club. > But before you can do that, you have to honestly see what YOU’RE REALLY > DOING.

Well, I’m not still doing the things I started doing in 1999 because they didn’t "work" (yield a continuing relatinship (*) with anyone, where I’d see that person more than once by arrangement/date/appointment), so I’m not doing them any more, and I haven’t gotten any new ideas what I might try instead. Do you want to know what I was REALLY doing in 1999 during my big attempt that developed my conversational skills but failed to achieve any ongoing relationship (*) with anyone? * ("relationship" means any non-trivial intersection between two sets, the mathematical definition, so saying ‘hi’ to a stranger once and getting a response is a (brief) relationship. "continuing relatinship" means having a non-trivial intersection that continues over time, like getting to see the same person again and again, week after week, with some growth of the level of interaction, instead of just resetting from zero each time like seeing a checker in a supermarket several times or seeing the same person on a train or bus several times but never actually speaking to each other) > By that I meant that I have the skills to provide all those things for > myself. Companionship doesn’t just happen, and no, I don’t have > companionship inside me.

Then we’re in agreement that companionship isn’t something we can create ourselves without the cooperation of another person, and consequently the loneliness that comes from social deprivation isn’t something we can cure without eliminating the social deprivation by getting some real life companionship with some OTHER person. But what if anything can you provide for yourself without anything from the outside world? You can’t provide yourself with food, except by owning land you can farm (I bet you don’t), or by obtaining food from a free-food bank, or by obtaining money from an employer or welfare system whereby you can buy food, or by begging people to give you food, agree? You can’t provide yourself with shelter from the Winter cold, except by somehow getting money to pay rent somewhere, unless you own a house in some place that doesn’t require you to pay property taxes or even utilities, agree? What if anything can you provide yourself without money and without anyone willing to supply you with the raw materials out of which to fabricate what you need?? I can’t provide myself with air, it just comes free all around me. I can’t provide myself with water to drink, but it’s included in the rent of my apartment. Are you a supernatural being who creates air and water out of yourself?? Whoopie!! I have to pay $20/month for InterNet access, and my ISP has software for a programming language I know, so I have the skills to make computer softare for myself using my ISP’s services that I have to pay for each month, so I can leverage my $20/month into self-created software. I can even put my software up for others to use, as a demonstration of what I can do, in the hope somebody might hire me to develop software for them too. See http://shell.tsoft.com/~rem/cgi-bin/topscript.cgi for that demo. But the point is that I can make software myself using my own skills, but software doesn’t provide any of my basic needs such as shelter or water or food or companionship. (I used to be able to make software on my own computer, a Macintosh Plus, on which I had a … read more »

Response:

Hi, nohope4l…@Yahoo.Com! In article <64e8145c.0112051224.a440…@posting.google.com>, you say: |> Message-ID: <3be46ec…@news.nwlink.com> |> From: Brian <n…@dev.net> |Well that’s a pretty worthless e-mail address! It keeps the spam from overfilling my real Inbox, though. Just trying to keep some boundaries. I remember you; you’re the one fixated on recreating your childhood, with Mom giving you complete and total unconditional love without your having to work for it. Time to grow up. Real relationships take time to build, and take effort to maintain. You also tend to take small statements I make out of context to reply to them. You miss the forest because of all these damn trees! Try to see the whole picture I present. Read on if you’re interested in pushing your boundaries. |> Date: 3 Nov 2001 14:25:12 -0800 | |<> | |It’s one thing to be in the process of learning, and it’s |another to have succeeded at learning. Have you actually met |anybody to have an ongoing active persoanl relationship (*), |or are you still learning but not yet achieved the goal of |having any RL active friends or acquaintances? When I originally posted this, I was just starting to get out and meet people. That’s where it all starts, you know… with the very first "hi!" and then the "small talk" and moving into the more deeper talk about feelings and emotions, and then the invitation to talk more some other time, and all the time evaluating whether or not this person you’re talking to is worth the time and effort. Since that time, I’ve said "hi!" to thousands of people. Many ignored me or pretended not to hear me. Some noticed me and didn’t respond. Fewer still noticed me, said "hi!" back and wandered off, embarassed. A slim margin of people said "hi" and engaged me in small talk, and that’s all the further it went. And, in a handful of cases, really, just a couple of people… we’re spending time together and getting to know each other more. One of them I’m feeling very fond of tonight, because we went out to a social function with the intent of meeting more people and practicing our social skills, and both ended up realizing (I think… we haven’t said anything directly) that we each came with the person we wanted to meet. Dunno. I’ll find out more in a couple of days, when we go out again. We’re still getting to know each other. In another case, I’m realizing that a person I at first thought of as very attractive, isn’t. She doesn’t seem to like it when I’m honest with her. And from her actions she views me as a temporary fill-in friend, rather than someone she really wants to get to know. We had plans this weekend, and she got asked out this weekend by "a cute guy", and she told me that we couldn’t go out. I told her I was disappointed, and she’s embarassed but still planning on going out with him. I’ve been honest with her from the begining, and I’ve told her when I’ve had plans with someone else, and I’ve turned down other offers to keep plans with her… It’s why we "date", to find all this out in advance. In some degrees, it’s a game, but some play honestly and openly, and some play greedily, and some play hard ball. That’s life. I’m not going to accept that kind of behavior from her. If she persists, I’m not going to spend time with her. If she’s just made a mistake and is willing to admit it, then we can continue to spend time together. I’m open to the possibility, but I’m not going to give up who I am and what I expect from people. But, even though I’ve gotten to know only one or two people intimately out of the thousands I’ve met… every one of those interactions is a success. I don’t have time to get to know all of them intimately, and each step is a way to sort out the ones worth getting to know. My point of view has changed 180 degrees: where before I saw only my lack, and viewed people as having this perfect life and if only I could break through and share in their perfect life… now I see only humans, with ups and downs and plusses and minuses, and I sift through them to find the gems. It’s hard work, but it’s worth every minute. |<<The hard work was looking at myself and figuring out what |parts of my life were under my control, and fixing the parts |of my life that were fucked up.>> | |I already did that a long time ago: I can’t get anybody to |pay me to work for them, nor get anybody to be |friends/companions with me, but I can do simple things like |driving my car to get food from the free-food bank, or |washing dishes. If you’ve sorted out which parts of your life are under your control, then you’re ahead of the game. I’m not kidding when I say that noticing what I actually do is the most difficult skill I’ve ever had to learn. I do tend to keep people away, when I act on instinct. I have to push myself to act in a way that draws people in. I have to expose myself to potential rejection, and get over it. From your comments here, and elsewhere, I seriously doubt that you’ve achieved that. |<> | |I did that a long time ago, but haven’t found anybody who |considers me to have worth, either by paying me for my very |good work writing computer software, or by letting me be |their RL friend. What do you have to offer them, as a "Real Life Friend"? There are two basic questions, "Who am I?" and "What do I want?". More important than the answers are the order in which you answer them. Why should someone "let" you be their friend? If you’ve done this a long time ago, perhaps you need to reevaluate. If what you’re doing isn’t getting your needs fulfilled, then DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Anything. But before you can do that, you have to honestly see what YOU’RE REALLY DOING. |<<that I could take care of myself>> | |No living creature can do that without input from outside, |such as food, or just sunlight water and minerals in the |case of plants. Humans need to obtain air, water, food, |shelter, relief of waste, and companionship, none of which a |human can supply from within oneself. By that I meant that I have the skills to provide all those things for myself. Companionship doesn’t just happen, and no, I don’t have companionship inside me. But I create relationships from inside myself, and connect with other people, and I pick and choose the people I want to connect to. Every human does. |<<that there wasn’t some magic relationship "out there">> | |Relationships aren’t magic, they’re just interactions |between two people, consisting of normal physical processes |such as touching and information exchange. They aren’t |things like objects, they are an abstraction of what is |going on between two people. People need human contact of |this kind to survive emotionally. I’m not getting any. |All my offers of social contact are rejected by everyone. ALL YOUR OFFERS? Really? Every single last one of them? I’ll bet you discount this offer, right? "That’s not a Real Life offer" You don’t see that this is an actual exchange, simply because it happens online. You’re right, in that I have no intention of taking this exchange offline. But I’m still engaging you in conversation, and you’re responding to me. It’s a give and take. How many offers of social contact have you made? How did you make them? What was your body language, what was your mindset at the time, were you honestly asking or did you expect a catastrophe this time "like every other time"? Are you preparing yourself for disaster by using language like "crash and burn" or "horrible" or thinking someone is going to "slit your throat" if you say "hi"? Get out of your rut. Consider the pyramid that I alluded to above; it takes thousands of interactions to create one friendship worth having. Start having those thousands of interactions today. Push yourself past where you’re comfortable; if you’re feeling anxious and uncomfortable, you’re on the right track because you’re going farther than you’ve gone before. And focus on one step at a time, but make the first step. If someone wants to offer you just a "hi" in return, accept it and move on. That was a successful relationship. But if someone wants to offer more, then go with it. Be prepared to offer more in return. You built the wall one brick at at time. You’ll have to take it down that way, too. — Brian

Response:

Google won’t let me post a followup, because your message is more than a month old, so I’m posting a new article with same Subject field, hoping Google will put it in the same thread. > Message-ID: <3be46ec…@news.nwlink.com> > From: Brian <n…@dev.net>

Well that’s a pretty worthless e-mail address! > Date: 3 Nov 2001 14:25:12 -0800

<> It’s one thing to be in the process of learning, and it’s another to have succeeded at learning. Have you actually met anybody to have an ongoing active persoanl relationship (*), or are you still learning but not yet achieved the goal of having any RL active friends or acquaintances? * (jeangenie2…@hotmail.com claims the very word "relationship" implies an intimate sexual relationship, but I’m using the word in the more generic sense of any nontrivial ongoing set of interactions, and specifically something of a personal nature as opposed to professional (such as employee at supermarket you never see anywhere except when she’s working there).) <<The hard work was looking at myself and figuring out what parts of my life were under my control, and fixing the parts of my life that were fucked up.>> I already did that a long time ago: I can’t get anybody to pay me to work for them, nor get anybody to be friends/companions with me, but I can do simple things like driving my car to get food from the free-food bank, or washing dishes. <> I did that a long time ago, but haven’t found anybody who considers me to have worth, either by paying me for my very good work writing computer software, or by letting me be their RL friend. <<that I could take care of myself>> No living creature can do that without input from outside, such as food, or just sunlight water and minerals in the case of plants. Humans need to obtain air, water, food, shelter, relief of waste, and companionship, none of which a human can supply from within oneself. <<that there wasn’t some magic relationship "out there">> Relationships aren’t magic, they’re just interactions between two people, consisting of normal physical processes such as touching and information exchange. They aren’t things like objects, they are an abstraction of what is going on between two people. People need human contact of this kind to survive emotionally. I’m not getting any. All my offers of social contact are rejected by everyone.

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Lonely Loneliness

You are not alone — Lonely Loneliness

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