> Ooookay!:) Blergh… > I am starting over, W.U. > I tried to answer too fast when I was sick and had a headache and fever > and and and….:) > Hehehe, I tried to control when I would answer, while giving you a speech > on not controlling:), pfft:) > All meant in good intentions, but the way to hell is paved with them good > intentions, they say.

I didn’t take your comments with any bad intentions.  Some of it rang true, but some of it didn’t, to be honest… I read it carefully, noticed que vous

I say people’s name alot, because I hate generalized chat that purely exists for social construct purposes.  "hi how are you" "I am fine"  when neither one even has made a true connection with the other.  I feel like saying "Hi Joe, what’s new with you today?" is more specific and personal and is more of a real actual attempt to connect with someone.  If they choose to just say " oh not much" and walk away then they obviously didn’t get it.  But oh well–I am sort of in a people suck mode right now, but I had a better day today than lately. cogge

Response:

"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote > you devil you  ;-)

oh, you have *no* idea.  you’re married, right?  wanna find out? LOL

Response:

Um, Thanks but I’ll pass.  I’ve got enough problems at the moment.  I’ll keep you in mind tho for when things start getting dull Temptation knocking at my door wrote: >oh, you have *no* idea.  you’re married, right?  wanna find out? >LOL >;)

pollyanna

Response:

>From: "pheobe" pbtnospam…@hotmail.com >Date: 6/16/2004 1:15 PM Eastern Standard Time >(btw Pheobe isn’t my real name, just an alias)

And a very good alias it is.  Has similar mythological roots to Diana. ) Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

"pheobe" <pbtnospam…@hotmail.com> wrote > I don’t understand why you need to hear your name though?

generally speaking i don’t.  as a matter of fact i sometimes find it annoying when certain persons use my name.  however, especially within the confines of a romantic relationship i think it’s important to use a partner’s name or "pet name."  names are very personal and important.  books and courses have been written around this topic and seminars conducted on the importance of a person’s name when conducting business with them or simply maintaining an interpersonal relationship. in my relationship with crystal i didn’t walk around obsessing about this topic; but it’s something that would bother me, usually when i was apart from her and the realization crossed my mind.  "she never says my name."  it was symptomatic of deeper issues within the relationship.  simply put, she was selfish.

Response:

? >maybe her >husband can help her sort it out when she gets home. >~:-P

pollyanna

Response:

"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote > ?

i don’t expect anybody to pay attention to the details of my circus life, but i never hid the fact that crystal was married too — the difference being that her husband had completely abandoned her a couple months before we met.  that fact alone should have been my cue to avoid her.  would have dodged a great deal of heartache and allowed me to move on to other married women.   lol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >maybe her > >husband can help her sort it out when she gets home. > >~:-P > pollyanna

Response:

you devil you  ;-)   <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>  ? >i don’t expect anybody to pay attention to the details of my circus life, >but i never hid the fact that crystal was married too — the difference >being that her husband had completely abandoned her a couple months before >we met.  that fact alone should have been my cue to avoid her.  would have >dodged a great deal of heartache and allowed me to move on to other married >women.   lol >> >maybe her >> >husband can help her sort it out when she gets home. >> >~:-P >> pollyanna

pollyanna

Response:

Diana wrote: >I’m not sure.  I always thought it was customary that the more familiar you

are with someone, the less often you use their name. That’s so true.  I had my husbands name officially changed to ‘hon’  ;-) pollyanna

Response:

"Wmaebe1" <wmae…@aol.comnojunk> wrote > That’s so true. > I had my husbands name officially changed to ‘hon’  ;-)

that’s part of the problem i didn’t even go into for the sake of brevity. she didn’t even have a "pet name" for me.  she didn’t call me anything.  for some reason she called me "woofie" in the very early stages of the relationship, but that soon died after the first couple of dates. regardless, i have a new set of problems now.  my new gfriend, whose name happens to be cindy, just left here in a controlled emotional huff.  i think she’s dealing with profound guilt issues.  i wouldn’t know why.  maybe her husband can help her sort it out when she gets home. ~:-P

Response:

"Diana DeLuna" <nakedlightb…@aol.comehither> wrote > Crystal must have paid you a few compliments early on > in the relationship,…

well, now that ya forced me to think about it, she was complimentary of my bed manner, but what the hell is that?  otherwise, it was like she had a psychological block against offering compliments on things that people really care about.  and what was that name stuff about?  i always make an effort to use a person’s name frequently when communicating with them, especially within a romantic relationship.  i wasn’t exaggerating.  she *never* called me by name.  it was always "hey" and "hi" and "how’s it going?" without any use of my name.  i wonder what that might signify in psychological terms.  LOL or how could you have continued to be attracted to her? Your – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> brain is clouded with lust for the new one now. ;o) > Diana (of the Moon) > "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." > –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

>From: "Warlock" witc…@suck.com >Date: 6/7/2004 8:32 PM Eastern Standard Time >  i always make an >effort to use a person’s name frequently when communicating with them, >especially within a romantic relationship.  i wasn’t exaggerating.  she >*never* called me by name.  it was always "hey" and "hi" and "how’s it >going?" without any use of my name.  i wonder what that might signify in >psychological terms.  LOL

I’m not sure.  I always thought it was customary that the more familiar you are with someone, the less often you use their name. But then, you’re right–it does sound like you’re taking a tried-and-true person for granted.  And I definitely think it’s always nice to hear your partner say your name aloud in bed. Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

new girlfriend.  today she told me that i have beautiful eyes and she loves my smile.  she also says my name over and over again and then laughs as she explains how much she enjoys saying my name. who cares, right?  well, i bring it up for the sake of comparison. during my seven month relationship with crystal, she never paid me a single compliment that i can remember.  i also don’t remember my name crossing her lips except when she was talking about me to others.  never.  she never said my name. wtf?  crystal was a fucking b*tch!  pardon my expressiveness, but i had a revelation today!  LOL

Response:

>From: "Warlock" witc…@suck.com >Date: 6/6/2004 8:42 PM Eastern Standard Time >during my seven month relationship with crystal, she never paid me a single >compliment that i can remember.  i also don’t remember my name crossing her >lips except when she was talking about me to others.  never.  she never said >my name.

Really?  Crystal must have paid you a few compliments early on in the relationship, or how could you have continued to be attracted to her? Your brain is clouded with lust for the new one now. ;o) Diana (of the Moon) "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

You wrote to 10 girls and 2 answered – that’s a 20% success rate. That’s about where I’m at right now in online dating – and I’m a 27 y/o student. But it doesn’t stop with that 20% who responded to your initial message – like you said they broke off the conversation. Keeping the conversation going is the next level that you have to get over. It’s Probable that only 20% of the girls that respond to your initial message are open to anything long-term. Which means that you’ll have to write to 100 girls to find 4 real prospects. Online dating is just a big numbers game, and like someone already said it requires alot patience.

Response:

After rebooting Windows, Real Genius wrote: > You wrote to 10 girls and 2 answered – that’s a 20% success rate. That’s > about where I’m at right now in online dating – and I’m a 27 y/o > student. But it doesn’t stop with that 20% who responded to your initial > message – like you said they broke off the conversation. Keeping the > conversation going is the next level that you have to get over. It’s > Probable that only 20% of the girls that respond to your initial message > are open to anything long-term. Which means that you’ll have to write to > 100 girls to find 4 real prospects.

While it takes a lot of time to actually get a gf out of online personals, the process itself is very useful to the shy guy.  You get to practice interacting with women, meeting new people and making conversation, small talk, rejection, and yes being patient.  It took me about 3 years to turn results.  But the skills and confidence I picked up were invaluable.  Don’t focus on getting a girl.  Focus on gaining skills and confidence.

Response:

In news:2g9h52F6srqU1@uni-berlin.de, Snowboarder <snowboarder1ch_nos…@yahoo.com> a

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four/Five of Five Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three of Three Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "www.google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra to help novices understand the difference.  I believe that most United States novices have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., kundalini). For the record, I do _not_ practice and I do _not_ recommend kundalini (anal intercourse).  Personally, I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’ and I control my private home.  However, IMO the anal orifice did _not_ evolve for this purpose and is _not_ designed for this purpose.  IMO the anal orifice has greater susceptibility to physical damage (muscle tearing) than the female vagina.  (IMO so-called ‘butt plugs’ were invented to solve a sanitary problem. IMO butt plugs were _not_ invented as sensuous devices.)  And IMO intestinal microbes can cause epidemiological problems. (E.g., some forms of hepatitus can be transmitted when food servers do not wash their hands thoroughly after using the restroom.)  I choose _not_ to travel this path.  I recommend that others considering traveling this path investigate nonconstipating diets, and investigate their state’s laws (if any) concerning sodomy. For the record, I do _not_ employ and do _not_ recommend physical pain as a means to achieve or prolong orgasm. I know that some tribal societies [both Native American (as depicted in the film 'A Man Called Horse' starring Richard Harris) and Hindu (as depicted by PBS documentaries) employ/ed physical pain [piercing of (sometimes nonmuscular) soft tissue areas with (later weighted) pencil-thick wooden skewers] as a means to reach and to prolong a worshipful (drugfree semidelusional) state of nirvana.  (Western) neo-Tantra recognizes both physical orgasm and (nonphysical neurological) mental orgasm.  I have experienced both physical orgasm and mental orgasm in painfree drugfree environments.  Pain is _not_ necessary to achieve orgasm.  Painful practices can cause bodily damage.  I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’.  But inflicting pain can become NONconsentually imposing discipline.  I choose _not_ to travel this path. I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might forgo neo-Tantra altogether.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read neo-Tantra books when REAL Tantra books are available?" Neo-Tantra emphasizes the pleasurable aspects of (Eastern) Tantra and of Taoism.  IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while IMO (Eastern) Tantra and its physical (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. The accompanying Part Two message lists five texts and one FAQ. Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful.  Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra exercises requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm. Some people might equate all-weather jogging with painful physical discipline.  I equate all-weather jogging with antilazy mental self-discipline.  I control my pace and duration, and I gradually worked up to my current performance level. Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a neo-Tantra-relevant sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture. (Drawn depictions of Pagan gods usually feature impressive thighs.) Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — stretching limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle.  These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible.  Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase

… read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four/Five of Five Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three of Three Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "www.google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra to help novices understand the difference.  I believe that most United States novices have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). <* For the record, I do _not_ practice and I do _not_ recommend kundalini (anal intercourse).  Personally, I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’ and I control my private home.  However, IMO the anal orifice did _not_ evolve for this purpose and is _not_ designed for this purpose.  IMO the anal orifice has greater susceptibility to physical damage (muscle tearing) than the female vagina.  (IMO so-called ‘butt plugs’ were invented to solve a sanitary problem. IMO butt plugs were _not_ invented as sensuous devices.)  And IMO intestinal microbes can cause epidemiological problems. (E.g., some forms of hepatitus can be transmitted when food servers do not wash their hands thoroughly after using the restroom.)  I choose _not_ to travel this path.  I recommend that others considering traveling this path investigate nonconstipating diets, and investigate their state’s laws (if any) concerning sodomy. <* For the record, I do _not_ employ and do _not_ recommend physical pain as a means to achieve or prolong orgasm. I know that some tribal societies [both Native American (as depicted in the film 'A Man Called Horse' starring Richard Harris) and Hindu (as depicted by PBS documentaries) employ/ed physical pain [piercing of (sometimes nonmuscular) soft tissue areas with (later weighted) pencil-thick wooden skewers] as a means to reach and to prolong a worshipful (drugfree semidelusional) state of nirvana.  (Western) neo-Tantra recognizes both physical orgasm and (nonphysical neurological) mental orgasm.  I have experienced both physical orgasm and mental orgasm in painfree drugfree environments.  Pain is _not_ necessary to achieve orgasm.  Painful practices can cause bodily damage.  I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’.  But inflicting pain can become NONconsentually imposing discipline.  I choose _not_ to travel this path. I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might forgo neo-Tantra altogether.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read neo-Tantra books when REAL Tantra books are available?" Neo-Tantra emphasizes the pleasurable aspects of (Eastern) Tantra and of Taoism.  IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while IMO (Eastern) Tantra and its physical (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. The accompanying Part Two message lists five texts and one FAQ. Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful.  Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra exercises requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm. Some people might equate all-weather jogging with painful physical discipline.  I equate all-weather jogging with antilazy mental self-discipline.  I control my pace and duration, and I gradually worked up to my current performance level. Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a neo-Tantra-relevant sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture. (Drawn depictions of Pagan gods usually feature impressive thighs.) Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — stretching limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle.  These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible.  Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word

… read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four/Five of Five Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three of Three Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra to help novices understand the difference.  I believe that most United States novices have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). <* For the record, I do _not_ practice and I do _not_ recommend Kundalini (anal intercourse).  I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’. IMO the anal orifice did _not_ evolve for this purpose and is _not_ designed for this purpose.  IMO the anal orifice has greater susceptibility to physical damage (muscle tearing) than the female vagina.  (IMO so-called ‘butt plugs’ were invented to solve a sanitary problem.  IMO butt plugs were _not_ invented as sensuous devices.)  And IMO intestinal microbes can cause epidemiological problems.  (E.g., some forms of hepatitus can be transmitted when food servers do not wash their hands thoroughly after using the restroom.)  I choose _not_ to travel this path. <* For the record, I do _not_ employ and do _not_ recommend physical pain as a means to achieve or prolong orgasm. I know that some tribal societies [both Native American (as depicted in the film 'A Man Called Horse' starrig Richard Harris) and Hindu (as depicted by PBS documentaries) employ/ed physical pain [piercing of soft tissue areas with (later weighted) pencil-thick wooden skewers] as a means to reach and to prolong a worshipful (drugfree semidelusional) state of nirvana.  (Western) neo-Tantra recognizes both physical orgasm and (nonphysical neurological) mental orgasm. I have experienced both physical orgasm and mental orgasm in painfree drugfree environments.  Pain is _not_ necessary to achieve orgasm.  Painful practices can cause bodily damage. I recognize the legal concept of ‘consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes’.  But inflicting pain can become NONconsentually imposing discipline.  I choose _not_ to travel this path. I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might forgo neo-Tantra altogether.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. <* Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read neo-Tantra books when REAL Tantra books are available?" Neo-Tantra emphasizes the pleasurable aspects of (Eastern) Tantra and of Taoism.  IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while IMO (Eastern) Tantra and its physical (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. The accompanying Part Two message lists five texts and one FAQ. Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful.  Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra exercises requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. <* The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm. Some people might equate all-weather jogging with painful physical discipline.  I equate all-weather jogging with antilazy mental self-discipline.  I control my pace and duration, and I gradually worked up to my current performance level. Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a neo-Tantra-relevant sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture. (Drawn depictions of Pagan gods usually feature impressive thighs.) Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — stretching limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle.  These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible.  Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] <* Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies ‘STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY’ and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  Please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior … read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four/Five of Five Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three of Three Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra to help novices understand the difference.  I believe that most United States novices have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might forgo neo-Tantra altogether.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. <* Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read neo-Tantra books when REAL Tantra books are available?" Neo-Tantra emphasizes the pleasurable aspects of (Eastern) Tantra and of Taoism.  IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its physical (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. The accompanying Part Two message lists five texts and one FAQ. Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful.  Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra exercises requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle.  These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible.  Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies ‘STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY’ and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion — misinterpretation can be painful. Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter partners who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness [e.g., Bab's drinking, Joe's workaholism (he's never at home) or Joe's occupational difficulties (Joe keeps strange work hours and nobody understands his profession)].  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject.  This out-of-context behaviour never is discussed, but obviously these partners employ the safe word ‘fight’ to stop each other’s uncomfortable/embarrassing social behaviour.  I can only guess why partners choose ‘fight’ for their safe word. ;- I consider ‘fight’ to be a poor and inflammatory choice of safe words among casual companions or total strangers — what works with your partner might be misinterpreted by other people as a threat.  IMO turning and walking away instead of using canned ’safe phrases’ is more appropriate behaviour when (inadvertantly or accidentally?) insulted by casual companions or total strangers. And IMO if a person receives continual insults from companions, they need better companions. I also encounter NON-neo-Tantra group situations where politically not correct behaviour is frowned … read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker (none this time). Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four of Four Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two of Two Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra so that novices will understand the difference.  I believe that most novices in the United States have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but if it is, the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might choose to forgo magick use altogether, and to pursue their goals using mundane methods exclusively.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read books about neo-Tantra when there are books out there about REAL Tantra? If you want to learn something ancient, then read the books about the ancient, and not modern interpretation and rewriting based on the ancient." IMO ancient does not equate to appropriate.  This document lists five texts and one FAQ.  Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline. (Eastern) Tantra evolved in a Hinduism/Taoism environment where people on mystical quests lived lives of sacrifice and (self-)discipline.  Neo-Tantra is a Western filtration of (Eastern) Tantra that retains techniques bringing pleasure and intimacy to sexual partners.  In addition, neo-Tantra practitioners easily can avoid the physically painful (Eastern) Tantra exercises designed to achieve Nirvana (which IMO is a *semi-delusional* mental state). IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful. Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. A reader ridiculed my suggestion that women should wear appropriate sports bras during strenuous exercise, and that partners should be sensitive to each other's comfort during exercise.  I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle. These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible. Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies ‘STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY’ and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion — misinterpretation can be painful. Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter partners who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness [e.g., Bab's drinking, Joe's workaholism (he's never at home) or Joe's occupational difficulties (Joe keeps strange work hours and nobody understands his profession)].  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject.  This

… read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003-2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four of Four Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two of Two Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra so that novices will understand the difference.  I believe that most novices in the United States have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but if it is, the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might choose to forgo magick use altogether, and to pursue their goals using mundane methods exclusively.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read books about neo-Tantra when there are books out there about REAL Tantra? If you want to learn something ancient, then read the books about the ancient, and not modern interpretation and rewriting based on the ancient." IMO ancient does not equate to appropriate.  This document lists five texts and one FAQ.  Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline. (Eastern) Tantra evolved in a Hinduism/Taoism environment where people on mystical quests lived lives of sacrifice and (self-)discipline.  Neo-Tantra is a Western filtration of (Eastern) Tantra that retains techniques bringing pleasure and intimacy to sexual partners.  In addition, neo-Tantra practitioners easily can avoid the physically painful (Eastern) Tantra exercises designed to achieve Nirvana (which IMO is a *semi-delusional* mental state). IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful. Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. A reader ridiculed my suggestion that women should wear appropriate sports bras during strenuous exercise, and that partners should be sensitive to each other's comfort during exercise.  I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle. These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible. Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies ‘STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY’ and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion — misinterpretation can be painful. Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter partners who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness [e.g., Bab's drinking, Joe's workaholism (he's never at home) or Joe's occupational difficulties (Joe keeps strange work hours and nobody understands his profession)].  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject.  This out-of-context … read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003, 2004 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four of Four Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two of Two Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra so that novices will understand the difference.  I believe that most novices in the United States have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but if it is, the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might choose to forgo magick use altogether, and to pursue their goals using mundane methods exclusively.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read books about neo-Tantra when there are books out there about REAL Tantra? If you want to learn something ancient, then read the books about the ancient, and not modern interpretation and rewriting based on the ancient." IMO ancient does not equate to appropriate.  This document lists five texts and one FAQ.  Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline. (Eastern) Tantra evolved in a Hinduism/Taoism environment where people on mystical quests lived lives of sacrifice and (self-)discipline.  Neo-Tantra is a Western filtration of (Eastern) Tantra that retains techniques bringing pleasure and intimacy to sexual partners.  In addition, neo-Tantra practitioners easily can avoid the physically painful (Eastern) Tantra exercises designed to achieve Nirvana (which IMO is a *semi-delusional* mental state). IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful. Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra exercises can be performed by novices having limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. A reader ridiculed my suggestion that women should wear appropriate sports bras during strenuous exercise, and that partners should be sensitive to each other's comfort during exercise.  I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle. These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible. Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities.] Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies ‘STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY’ and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion — misinterpretation can be painful. Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter partners who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness [e.g., Bab's drinking, Joe's workaholism (he's never at home) or Joe's occupational difficulties (Joe keeps strange work hours and nobody understands his profession)].  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject.  This out-of-context … read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Copyright 2003 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)".

     <snip I choose _not_ to discuss the subject of older women and in vitro fertilization. I choose _not_ to discuss the subject of fertile women with anonymous boyfriends.  (On the television series "Happy Days", Fonzi was an attractive character but to my knowledge Fonzi never had a girlfriend.)

<* IMO men and women have different perspectives concerning infants. Some women view motherhood as ‘a second career’ — a new beginning after leaving their first career in the workplace.  Taken to extremes and in the context of 21st Century jurisprudence, motherhood can be viewed as a twenty-plus-year career with financial tenure.  And IMO broadcast television (both a trendsetter and a social barometer) increasingly revolves around ‘the joys of (single) parenthood’.  ’Rosie The Riveter’ no longer is honored, and Dad increasingly is absent from the (affluent and glamorous?) single female parent environment often portrayed in 21st Century broadcast commercial messages. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<* The decision to have children has *major economic consequences*, and this decision will become increasingly popular with women if the United States’ domestic economy (and job market) downsizes further, becoming leaner and meaner with automation increasingly eliminating non-professional jobs.  [IMO (lack of) quality higher education is an issue in the 21st Century United States.]  The increasingly popular 21st Century female social trend towards motherhood in turn might adversely affect males’ (friendly) attitudes towards their female partners.  And if ‘not disturbing the children’ becomes the basis for family living, IMO the children are tools of social control and an _childish_ unstable family environment might result. <* Birth control is based upon *mutual respect and mutual good faith*.  IMO when used with mutual respect and mutual good faith, modern birth control is *extremely* effective.  IMO when used with mutual respect and mutual good faith, birth control is *possible*. IMO coital abstinence is the only foolproof birth (and financial) ***control*** method — this is a *dominance* issue rather than a biological issue.  In cases where (male) fear of pregnancy motivates concern, I believe the situation signals _unresolved lifestyle goals_.

     <snip The comments contained herein are my opinions.  This message was not solicited by Amazon.com, any author, any artist, or their agent(s), publisher(s), producer(s) or distributor(s). I do not know if the television series name "Happy Days" or the character Fonzi ("The Fonz") are copyrighted or registered trade marks of George Lucas, Ron Howard, Henry Winkler or their associates.  I thank them for their inspiration. I am *not* legally qualified to provide medical, psychological, legal, financial or religious opinions, but I have discussed some issues with my Attorney and have read extensively in these areas. I have strong opinions. I got no problems.       Other people got problems. 00:    21  _8  02  03/35  06  09 Richard Ballard  MSEE  CNA4  KD0AZ — Consultant specializing in computer networks, imaging & security Listed as rjballard in "Friends & Favorites" at www.amazon.com Last book reviews: "Necronomicon" & "Necronomicon Spellbook"    by Ed Simon

Response:

Copyright 2003 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". <* Approximately twenty-one days before each of the eight annual Pagan sabbats I issue copyrighted multipart messages titled "Definitions For Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two/Three/Four of Four Parts)" and "A Reference List for Prospective Wiccan Novices (Part One/Two of Two Parts)", respectively.  These copyrighted multipart messages appear on Internet newsgroups alt.magick, alt.magick.tyagi, alt.pagan and alt.religion.wicca. These copyrighted multipart messages also are archived within "google.com" (no quotes). I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra so that novices will understand the difference.  I believe that most novices in the United States have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but if it is, the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might choose to forgo magick use altogether, and to pursue their goals using mundane methods exclusively.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read books about neo-Tantra when there are books out there about REAL Tantra? If you want to learn something ancient, then read the books about the ancient, and not modern intrepetation and rewriting based on the ancient." IMO ancient does not equate to appropriate.  This document lists five texts and one FAQ.  Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline. (Eastern) Tantra evolved in a Hinduism/Taoism environment where people on mystical quests lived lives of sacrifice and (self-)discipline.  Neo-Tantra is a Western filtration of (Eastern) Tantra that retains techniques bringing pleasure and intimacy to sexual partners.  In addition, neo-Tantra practitioners easily can avoid the physically painful (Eastern) Tantra exercises designed to achieve Nirvana (which IMO is a *semi-delusional* mental state). IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful. Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra can be performed by novices with limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. A reader ridiculed my suggestion that women should wear appropriate sports bras during strenuous exercise, and that partners should be sensitive to each other's comfort during exercise.  I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle. These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible. Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities. Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies 'STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY' and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion -- misinterpretation can be painful.] Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. <* Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter married couples who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness [e.g., Bab's drinking, Joe's workaholism (he's never at home) or Joe's occupational difficulties (Joe keeps strange work hours and nobody understands his profession)].  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject.  This out-of-context … read more »

Response:

Copyright 2003 by Richard J. Ballard — All Rights Reserved. Issued monthly.  Each issue’s new and significantly changed paragraphs begin with a <* marker. Part Two is contained in a concurrent, copyrighted message titled "A neo-Tantra Reference List (Part Two of Two Parts)". I believe that (Western) neo-Tantra is very relevant to Magickians, to Pagans, to witches and Wiccans, and to others interested in human fertility and sexuality. Novices interested in neo-Tantra might have difficulty obtaining *good* information about the subject.  A wealth of information on (Western) neo-Tantra and (Eastern) Tantra *is* available on the Internet — too much information.  A simple Google search on the word ‘neo-Tantra’ gives over 400 entries, while a Google search on the word ‘Tantra’ gives over 300,000 entries.  Reviewing that much information is akin to ‘taking a drink out of a firehose’ — it does not necessarily quench your thirst.   I have compiled this commented short "A neo-Tantra Reference List" — a terse list of clearly-written texts (that I own, and have read or browsed) primarily about (Western) neo-Tantra but also discussing (Eastern) Tantra so that novices will understand the difference.  I believe that most novices in the United States have greater interest in (Western) neo-Tantra than in (Eastern) Tantra with its sometimes *painful* discipline (e.g., Kundalini). I acknowledge that some neo-Tantra practitioners [so-called 'Tantrums', an appropriate designation for neo-Tantra practitioners who sometimes feel un(der)appreciated] believe that reading is not sufficient to learn neo-Tantra — some Tantrums believe that tutelage by an accomplished neo-Tantra instructor is required. Everyone does not live in an area where well-known neo-Tantra instructors are available, everyone can not afford neo-Tantra tutelage, and some individuals choose to reserve neo-Tantra contact to a well-known close friend(s).  I have had tutelage and I have read texts.  I believe that anybody reading well-written texts and practicing with a well-known friendly partner can obtain most of neo-Tantra’s benefits — increased closeness from sharing an intimate experience, healthful exercise, and increased body flexibility.  In a lighter vein, ‘Reading the directions is the last refuge of the COMPETENT.’ I do not know if the word ‘Tantrum’ is based in Latin, but if it is, the Latin plural of ‘Tantrum’ is ‘Tantra’.  I prefer the plural usage ‘Tantrums’ to avoid confusion when discussing neo-Tantrum practioners versus discussing Eastern Tantra. Magickian apprentices might have another issue with tutelage by accomplished neo-Tantra instructors: cost.  Cost-based neo-Tantra instruction can be awkward.  When the apprentice runs out of cash and credit and needs magickal assistance the greatest, the instruction stops.  Disagreements over money are all too common, and IMO disagreements tarnish a shining magickal relationship. Given the possibility of losing their (unreliable) magick exactly when they need it most, some magickal apprentices might choose to forgo magick use altogether, and to pursue their goals using mundane methods exclusively.  Magickally speaking, this strategy is analogous to the statement "I prefer no companions to bad or unreliable companions."  I have been told this latter statement boastfully demonstrates my ignorance of both magick and neo-Tantra.  I believe my statement illustrates free will. The act of giving neo-Tantra instruction freely is itself magickal.  The magick of free instruction strengthens the neo-Tantra instruction, making the instruction memorable, effective and longer-lasting. Some people trivialize neo-Tantra — they say "Why read books about neo-Tantra when there are books out there about REAL Tantra? If you want to learn something ancient, then read the books about the ancient, and not modern intrepetation and rewriting based on the ancient." IMO ancient does not equate to appropriate.  This document lists five texts and one FAQ.  Three of the texts discuss neo-Tantra, one text discusses interpersonal relationship psychology mixed with neo-Tantra, and one text discusses the mystical experiences achievable through (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline.  The listed FAQ stresses (Eastern) Tantra (self-)discipline. (Eastern) Tantra evolved in a Hinduism/Taoism environment where people on mystical quests lived lives of sacrifice and (self-)discipline.  Neo-Tantra is a Western filtration of (Eastern) Tantra that retains techniques bringing pleasure and intimacy to sexual partners.  In addition, neo-Tantra practitioners easily can avoid the physically painful (Eastern) Tantra exercises designed to achieve Nirvana (which IMO is a *semi-delusional* mental state). IMO neo-Tantra assists Western couples to strengthen their relationships, while (Eastern) Tantra and its (self-)discipline is less appropriate and less palatable to most Westerners. I discuss the texts that *I* believe are appropriate and useful. Others are free to discuss the texts that *they* believe are appropriate and useful.  That’s fair. Some people say that I trivialize Tantra and neo-Tantra.  These people say that if a person seeks increased intimacy, healthful exercise and increased body flexibility, why not just run a mile, do some stretching, and have a private dinner with your partner? I have three answers to this question. The first answer is that running a mile, stretching, and having cocktails while your partner prepares dinner does *not* build intimacy between partners — mutual shared activity builds and reinforces intimacy between partners.  Neo-Tantra should be a *friendly* activity shared between partners. The second answer is that while fitness enhances neo-Tantra pleasure, a novice need not be able to run a mile in order to derive enjoyment from neo-Tantra.  *Some* neo-Tantra can be performed by novices with limited fitness and flexibility. As Tantrum novices’ fitness and flexibility improves with practice, they can progress to neo-Tantra requiring additional fitness and flexibility.  Use caution when trying new neo-Tantra exercises (or partners) for the first time. The third answer reflects my personal philosophy.  I have jogged at least once daily (in the United States Midwest) since May 31, 1999 without missing — including one-hundred degree (F) heat; including two degree (F) cold with sixteen MPH winds and blowing snow; and including a heavy rain/hailstone storm.  Currently I jog three miles daily carrying two three-pound handweights and as a result can lift one-hundred-fifty pounds from a sitting position.  Jogging with handweights *does* complement neo-Tantra — it builds your leg, back, shoulder and arm muscles and improves your posture.  Stretching *is* beneficial prior to neo-Tantra — it limbers your muscles for any physical strain that might occur during neo-Tantra.  And *both* partners can jog and stretch prior to performing neo-Tantra. [BTW, I believe that women should wear appropriate 'sports bras' while jogging, and that both men and women should be sensitive to their partner's comfort during neo-Tantra and other exercise. <* A reader ridiculed my suggestion that women should wear appropriate sports bras during strenuous exercise, and that partners should be sensitive to each other's comfort during exercise.  I am not going to make crude jokes about 'Leave me breathless' or about (a-hem) 'The Nutcracker Sweet'.  I merely will comment that the human body contains sensitive so-called 'soft tissues' that contain nerves but no bone, cartilage or muscle. These soft tissues are prone to tearing, and once torn do _not_ naturally heal -- pain, damage and disfigurement are possible. Proper equipment and caring attitudes minimize these possibilities. Please utilize prearranged *safe words*.  Safe words are an easily memorable, short distinctive phrase not likely to be spoken during neo-Tantra.  Either partner voicing the safe word phrase signifies 'STOP and DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY' and usually signifies the partner is experiencing acute discomfort.  And please do *not* assume a new partner will recognize your personal safe word phrase without prior discussion -- misinterpretation can be painful.] <* Another reader ridiculed the safe word concept, stating "Why not merely say STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY?" IMO this is matter or personal preference, but I believe that the safe word/phrase concept is superior.  Neo-Tantra creates a ritualistic environment, a fragile environment that can be shattered by crude shouts of ‘STOP AND DISENGAGE IMMEDIATELY, DAMMIT’. A safe word/phrase can be chosen that either preserves the ritualistic environment [the idea being that we will (a-hem) rearrange ourselves and then continue the ritual] or is funny [the idea being that if we need the safe word/phrase we also will need some humor]. <* Safe words/phrases are not exclusive to neo-Tantra.  Increasingly I encounter married couples who obviously have been through formal counseling.  During social conversation one partner will begin discussing the other partner’s problem or weakness (e.g., Bab’s drinking, Joe’s workaholism — he’s never at home ).  The other partner interrupts the discussion with an out-of-context comment: ‘fight’.  Both partners immediately change the discussion subject. This out-of-context behaviour never is discussed, but obviously this couple employ the safe word ‘fight’ to stop each other’s uncomfortable/embarrassing social behaviour.  I can only guess why a couple choses ‘fight’ for their safe word. ;- <* I also encounter NON-neo-Tantra group situations where politically not correct behaviour is frowned upon _formally_. Specifically, the group employs a ‘cop’ (an individual who group members feel is physically threatening but who has self-control) either monetarily or on a volunteer basis.  When another person engages during group activities in behaviour deemed not politically correct, the physically … read more »

Response:

"Flavius" <nob…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:nr4d0vs5oat2tok64okg4p2pb451a7tpv1@4ax.com… > On 22 Dec 2002 20:28:43 -0800, Doug Anderson <ethelthe…@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >Not that I have any actual interest in this thread, but if you don’t > >know how to be mean without raising your voice, then you _really_ need > >lessons in something! > Yeah, become a Republican.

OR, take care of him so much that he becomes totally helpless and dependant on the system. Then you are a democrat. *cough welfare

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"Richard" <RRa…@Spame.not> wrote in message <news:MPxN9.69$%e4.203057@news.uswest.net>… > That was a very frightening response.  Victoria, you say you know ‘GAWD’ > from the Bible.  You want a man to be a leader, but you want to be sure. > You say you ‘couldn’t’ be mean, but you are ready to withold the one thing > required of you, trust. > What’s meaner than that? > R

Richard, That’s not mean because trust is earned. The Spirit of God never deceives, man does. That’s what the Lord demonstrated to you when he took OUR sins to the cross and died. Who betrayed him and abandoned him? God? Nope. It was man. The Spirit of God speaks through us, that’s how you trust that his Word will not fail. His Power is too strong to be argued with. Victoria

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len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:26707-3E06E952-525@storefull-2273.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > Victoria, > The silent treatment works just  fine.  Not all the time, just when you > are being disrespected.

That wouldn’t work I don’t think. Not for someone who is hard to stir. Victoria

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Merry Xmas Victoria, God bless…..Len

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Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter intuitive.

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len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you > can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please > remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter > intuitive.

I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. Thank you. Victoria

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On 22 Dec 2002 08:37:36 -0800, vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) wrote: >len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… >> Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you >> can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please >> remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter >> intuitive. >I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. >Thank you. >Victoria

Apparently you are so desperately in need of his lessons, that you do not even recognize the need.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jd…@yahoo.com (Subversionmania) wrote in message <news:3e061d99.742173858@news.cis.dfn.de>… > On 22 Dec 2002 08:37:36 -0800, vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) wrote: > >len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > >> Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you > >> can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please > >> remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter > >> intuitive. > >I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. > >Thank you. > >Victoria > Apparently you are so desperately in need of his lessons, that you do > not even recognize the need.

He said to be ‘mean’ to a man. I rarely even raise my voice, so how could I be mean? (not that I really want to know). Victoria

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) writes: > jd…@yahoo.com (Subversionmania) wrote in message <news:3e061d99.742173858@news.cis.dfn.de>… > > On 22 Dec 2002 08:37:36 -0800, vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) wrote: > > >len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > > >> Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you > > >> can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please > > >> remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter > > >> intuitive. > > >I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. > > >Thank you. > > >Victoria > > Apparently you are so desperately in need of his lessons, that you do > > not even recognize the need. > He said to be ‘mean’ to a man. I rarely even raise my voice, so how > could I be mean? (not that I really want to know).

Not that I have any actual interest in this thread, but if you don’t know how to be mean without raising your voice, then you _really_ need lessons in something!

Response:

That was a very frightening response.  Victoria, you say you know ‘GAWD’ from the Bible.  You want a man to be a leader, but you want to be sure. You say you ‘couldn’t’ be mean, but you are ready to withold the one thing required of you, trust. What’s meaner than that? R <snip> "Victoria" <vikt0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:96ecc749.0212222003.2812b763@posting.google.com… > jd…@yahoo.com (Subversionmania) wrote in message

<news:3e061d99.742173858@news.cis.dfn.de>… > > On 22 Dec 2002 08:37:36 -0800, vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) wrote: > > >len…@webtv.net wrote in message

<news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >> Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If you > > >> can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please > > >> remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not counter > > >> intuitive. > > >I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. > > >Thank you. > > >Victoria > > Apparently you are so desperately in need of his lessons, that you do > > not even recognize the need. > He said to be ‘mean’ to a man. I rarely even raise my voice, so how > could I be mean? (not that I really want to know). > Victoria

Response:

On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 22:15:22 -0800, "Richard" <RRa…@Spame.not> wrote: >That was a very frightening response.  Victoria, you say you know ‘GAWD’ >from the Bible.  You want a man to be a leader, but you want to be sure. >You say you ‘couldn’t’ be mean, but you are ready to withold the one thing >required of you, trust. >What’s meaner than that? >R

Tying a person up, smashing his bones, then ripping the skin off of his body with a pair of vise grips, and pouring salt in the wounds would be meaner than withholding trust. Subversionmania – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><snip> >"Victoria" <vikt0…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:96ecc749.0212222003.2812b763@posting.google.com… >> jd…@yahoo.com (Subversionmania) wrote in message ><news:3e061d99.742173858@news.cis.dfn.de>… >> > On 22 Dec 2002 08:37:36 -0800, vikt0…@yahoo.com (Victoria) wrote: >> > >len…@webtv.net wrote in message ><news:23249-3E04FF33-98@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net>… >> > >> Victoria, If you ever want to keep a man…..be mean to him ….If >you >> > >> can not understand that, you have alot to learn about life. Please >> > >> remember that the basic truths in life are more often than not >counter >> > >> intuitive. >> > >I don’t need your ‘lessons’ about life. >> > >Thank you. >> > >Victoria >> > Apparently you are so desperately in need of his lessons, that you do >> > not even recognize the need. >> He said to be ‘mean’ to a man. I rarely even raise my voice, so how >> could I be mean? (not that I really want to know). >> Victoria

Response:

Victoria, The silent treatment works just  fine.  Not all the time, just when you are being disrespected.

Response:

<len…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:26707-3E0381FF-66@storefull-2273.public.lawson.webtv.net… > It is also abvious WHY  your name is rancid!

Indeed it is

Response:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:20:22 -0500 (EST), len…@webtv.net wrote: >Sir,  your psycho babble has nothing to do with the real world. The >important  thing here is to get the upper hand before any talks begin. >The first rule of human psychology….never let  your cheating spouse >know how much they hurt you as they could probably care less anyway. You >can not approach  dishonesty and betrayal with an openess and honesty . >Remeber the two basic rules of an affair 1/ If accused deny it and 2/ If >caught say as little as possible.  Deal with a cheating situation with >your head, not your heart if you want to gain control over your life.

Very insightful.  

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It is also abvious WHY  your name is rancid!  

Response:

len…@webtv.net wrote in message <news:5979-3E032726-11@storefull-2278.public.lawson.webtv.net>… > Sir,  your psycho babble has nothing to do with the real world. The > important  thing here is to get the upper hand before any talks begin. > The first rule of human psychology….never let  your cheating spouse > know how much they hurt you as they could probably care less anyway. You > can not approach  dishonesty and betrayal with an openess and honesty . > Remeber the two basic rules of an affair 1/ If accused deny it and 2/ If > caught say as little as possible.  Deal with a cheating situation with > your head, not your heart if you want to gain control over your life.  

You are making matters worse, don’t you think? Victoria

Response:

<len…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:5979-3E032726-11@storefull-2278.public.lawson.webtv.net… > Sir,  your psycho babble has nothing to do with the real world. The > important  thing here is to get the upper hand before any talks begin. > The first rule of human psychology….never let  your cheating spouse > know how much they hurt you as they could probably care less anyway. You > can not approach  dishonesty and betrayal with an openess and honesty . > Remeber the two basic rules of an affair 1/ If accused deny it and 2/ If > caught say as little as possible.  Deal with a cheating situation with > your head, not your heart if you want to gain control over your life.

It’s plainly obvious WHY she had an affair. Congrats!

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>From: Flavius >On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:20:22 -0500 (EST), len…@webtv.net wrote: >>as they could probably care less anyway >oh oh

ROFLMAO.  You totally crack me up orpheus. Lenny Babe….could you or could you NOT care less.  Take a stance.

Response:

Marriage shouldn’t be viewed as a competition where each spouse ties to "get the upper hand" over the other in ANY situation, even one as painful & hurtful as your situation.  Perhaps your competitive, controlling attitude was part of the problem within your marriage that resulted in your wife having an affair. <len…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:5979-3E032726-11@storefull-2278.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sir,  your psycho babble has nothing to do with the real world. The > important  thing here is to get the upper hand before any talks begin. > The first rule of human psychology….never let  your cheating spouse > know how much they hurt you as they could probably care less anyway. You > can not approach  dishonesty and betrayal with an openess and honesty . > Remeber the two basic rules of an affair 1/ If accused deny it and 2/ If > caught say as little as possible.  Deal with a cheating situation with > your head, not your heart if you want to gain control over your life.

Response:

Sir,  your psycho babble has nothing to do with the real world. The important  thing here is to get the upper hand before any talks begin. The first rule of human psychology….never let  your cheating spouse know how much they hurt you as they could probably care less anyway. You can not approach  dishonesty and betrayal with an openess and honesty . Remeber the two basic rules of an affair 1/ If accused deny it and 2/ If caught say as little as possible.  Deal with a cheating situation with your head, not your heart if you want to gain control over your life.

Response:

That I still treat her nice and do not mention the affair she knows I found out about her having.  That is my revenge……..

Response:

In article <28848-3E02ADF9-…@storefull-2275.public.lawson.webtv.net>,  len…@webtv.net wrote: > That I still treat her nice and do not mention the affair she knows I > found out about her having.  That is my revenge……..

1) An affair is a symptom of an "illness" withing the marriage – problem(s) that might be fixed. 2) The problem(s) within the marriage can only be fixed identifying them and addressing them – which means talking about them. 3) Treating her nice and not mentioning the affair, particularly as a means of revenge, keep the problems hidden and unresolved, where they are most likely to grow until the marriage is unable to survive. So now you have a call to make – what do you want:  to kill your wife/have your revenge or to attempt reconciliation and restoration? Here is a wild thought.  Perhaps your inclination towards revenge, is related to the underlying problems.  I don’t mean to blame you entirely – she is responsible for the affair – but the dynamics within any interpersonal relationship involve both of the two people in the relationship. Think of any interpersonal relationship, marriage in particular, as an algebra equation, something like: 2x + 7 = 3y – 4 The equation needs to be balanced.  X and Y are the contributions of the two members of the relationship.

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Why is the dollar so low at the moment and is it for Europeans so cheap to go on an holiday to the USA (because of the Euro) ? Berty

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hhhmmphr…. what? HuH? Oh Gawwwd Berty is that you again? What is it this time now question number seven? post post post post post post yeee GADS you never stop. Okay lets see what it is…sit down while you wait..no problem….tea or coffe? I have some vodka to put in it??? Okay no then now what…… Oh that about the dollar being low and the euro and the travel thingy. Thats all part of our invasion plans. We had to tip the econmic realities in the right way for the best economic advance once we get the marines over the dikes. If thats it I’d like to get back to work on my material for thursday party of 25 people. I might go camping until then. Bring my guitar. I love Holland Berty and it is as insulting for me to imagine that as if it were being done to Hoboken New Jerse….or Canada. I have visited the Netherlands twice. I’m very worried and concerned about the changes nine eleven has brought to our government and national character. Now..fritx fratz it…..lemme get back to my plotting and scheming. I’m planning to ake over Berty. Yup. Am. Dambo CLOSE THE DOOR EASY….damn clasp don’t work right……. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MyStoryasIseeit

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<damod…@webtv.net> schreef in bericht news:17451-3D207F6F-91@storefull-2198.public.lawson.webtv.net… > hhhmmphr…. > what? HuH? Oh Gawwwd Berty is that you again? > What is it this time now question number seven? > post post post post post post yeee GADS you never stop.

Hey you noticed This way of posting has become quite commonplace here (essau , duck, etc). It irritated me also, but hey, I decided to go allong with modern times. I am invading the alt.support.sz. ng. Planning to take over. The first blow is half the battle. (LOL) > Okay lets see what it is…sit down while you wait..no problem….tea or > coffe? > I have some vodka to put in it???

Sure, I drink coffee all the time. I live of coffee nowadays. But extra vodka…. I would even fly to you to get such a treat !!!! > Okay no then now what…… > Oh that about the dollar being low and the euro and the travel thingy. > Thats all part of our invasion plans. > We had to tip the econmic realities in the right way for the best > economic advance once we get the marines over the dikes.

As long as they don’t invade during coffee-time. > If thats it I’d like to get back to work on my material for thursday > party of 25 people. > I might go camping until then. > Bring my guitar.

Sounds like you have a nice time coming up. Enjoy the party > I love Holland Berty and it is as insulting for me to imagine that as if > it were being done to Hoboken New Jerse….or Canada. I have visited the > Netherlands twice.

Always welcome for a new visit > I’m very worried and concerned about the changes nine eleven has brought > to our government and national character.

Yeah. General opinion here is that the Americans have become bunkers after sept. 11th. Russia has become a free place. But America seems to go to a totalitarian regime. I mean, just look at the answers I got. Everybody is frigthened to say anything. Why? Because all their emails are being checked by the CIA, FBI and NSA. People in the USA start to become affraid to say something. Just like Russia in old times. Seems like a dark curtain has fallen over the country. Is this the land of liberty and free speech? > Now..fritx fratz it…..lemme get back to my plotting and scheming. I’m > planning to ake over Berty. > Yup. Am. > Dambo > CLOSE THE DOOR EASY….damn clasp don’t work right…….

It’s is ok Damo. I was just wondering whether you people are aware what kind of image building the USA is doing abroad nowadays. Berty

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Some are aware Berty and some are scared. Don’t they call it war fever? My game is to go sit by some water under trees and read. The geat here is going into the upper ninties today. Heat is unbearable. No……not much consideration for world opinion has surfaced. Darn it….so many people feel so adamently about the new world I’m afraid to speak further. First time that happened. I seem to understand having read lotsa Moslem al quada speeches and all about retaking Spain and etc…..that pretty much forever we’re going to be killing Moslems. There is no end and there is no compromise possible. Its just what Islamic extremists do and our job now and forever is to kill them as fast and with as much efficency as possible and there s no end of it concevable. Imagining an end is irrational. Just kill forever, both sides. And it makes me really sick lately whenever I get close to this understanding. Maybe there is a flaw in my thinking…I hope so… And the government has become penny wise and pound foolish  in its approach. I have seen editorials and editorial cartoons explaining how it is unamerican to criticize Bush or the goverment. Of course its not funny. Most people here believe the arabs will do it again bigger and badder. Oh whatever…I gotta pack my pack and get outta here before the heat gets bad. Damo

Response:

damod…@webtv.net wrote: > Imagining an end is irrational. Just kill forever, both sides. > And it makes me really sick lately whenever I get close to this > understanding. > Maybe there is a flaw in my thinking…I hope so… > And the government has become penny wise and pound foolish  in its > approach.

Peace is the way to peace. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

<damod…@webtv.net> schreef in bericht news:13328-3D218F81-91@storefull-2195.public.lawson.webtv.net… > Some are aware Berty and some are scared. Don’t they call it war fever?

Well Americans had been lucky so far. Now it also has to deal with terror. Nothing new under the sun. > My game is to go sit by some water under trees and read. The geat here > is going into the upper ninties today. > Heat is unbearable.

Yeah that must be absolutely terrible. We have cool summers and warm winters. > No……not much consideration for world opinion has surfaced. > Darn it….so many people feel so adamently about the new world I’m > afraid to speak further. First time that happened.

Yeah that is what I mean. A few religious fanatics changes your society completely. How many Moslims are living in the USA? In Europe we have about 15 million Moslims. We don’t really feel borthered by it. > I seem to understand having read lotsa Moslem al quada speeches and all > about retaking Spain and etc…..that pretty much forever we’re going to > be killing Moslems.

There is no easy solution to the terror by Al Quada. Peace negotiations in the Middle East are doomed to fail. Irak remains a threat to the USA. Arab hatred seems to origin in the USA commitment of guarding Israel, funding and arming it. There is no unity in the Arab world. Maybe one day they will have their own currency, but there is no horizon for a united states of Arabia. Maybe in the future there will be more groups like Al Quada. Attacking Irak will increase Arab hatred. A lot of the Al Quada members come from Saudi Arabia, the country that the USA was trying to protect in the Gulf War against Iraq. That is how good they appreciated the help. > There is no end and there is no compromise possible. Its just what > Islamic extremists do and our job now and forever is to kill them as > fast and with as much efficency as possible and there s no end of it > concevable. > Imagining an end is irrational. Just kill forever, both sides.

You may be right. There is no way to negotiate with Al Quada. There is no way to negotiate with the Palestinians too. Friendly looking countries like Saudi Arabia will continue producing new religious fanatics ready to kill themselves for the greater good. > And it makes me really sick lately whenever I get close to this > understanding.

How many people are living in the USA? How many people get killed by car accidents in the USA? How many people get killed by crimes in the USA? How many people don’t get treated in hospital and die? How many homeless people die every year? Those deaths seem not important, but I think that every life counts. In the UK terror is a way of living. The IRA has been killing lots of English people. In Spain it is exactly the same with the ETA. France has it occasional bombers from Algeria. Italy has the mafia. Germany had the Bader Meinhoff group. The Netherlands had the Molukkers who kidnapped trains and buildings for a free Ambon (island in Indonesia). > Maybe there is a flaw in my thinking…I hope so… > And the government has become penny wise and pound foolish  in its > approach. > I have seen editorials and editorial cartoons explaining how it is > unamerican to criticize Bush or the goverment. > Of course its not funny.

Well you are in a WAR against terror. In WAR traitors get the bullet. Next step could be Marshall Law and Curfew at night. > Most people here believe the arabs will do it again bigger and badder.

I don’t think so. > Oh whatever…I gotta pack my pack and get outta here before the heat > gets bad.

Have fun in the shade Damo. Berty

Response:

I just came from an AA meeting and I wasn’t allowed to speak. I just wanted to ask where I could get some Tvarsky 160 Proof Vodka for my Pepsi.

Response:

Sandie wrote: > damod…@webtv.net wrote: > > Imagining an end is irrational. Just kill forever, both sides. > > And it makes me really sick lately whenever I get close to this > > understanding. > > Maybe there is a flaw in my thinking…I hope so… > > And the government has become penny wise and pound foolish  in its > > approach. > Peace is the way to peace.

I sometimes wonder if peace is irrelevant to some people now. ER…

Response:

Hi ER, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ER wrote: > Sandie wrote: > > damod…@webtv.net wrote: > > > Imagining an end is irrational. Just kill forever, both sides. > > > And it makes me really sick lately whenever I get close to this > > > understanding. > > > Maybe there is a flaw in my thinking…I hope so… > > > And the government has become penny wise and pound foolish  in its > > > approach. > > Peace is the way to peace. > I sometimes wonder if peace is irrelevant to some people now. > ER…

Apparently it is irrelevant to many people, especially as they identify themselves with groups for which it seems irrelevant (such as nations, gangs, mobs, etc.). Without the mind-numbing influence of group-related goals of conquest and acquisition,  fueled by greed and hunger for power, many (if not most) individuals would be happy with a peaceful world… if they really *thought* about it. Every goal begins with a thought. I like to imagine that possibility, anyway. Sandie — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

Sandie wrote: > > > Peace is the way to peace. > > I sometimes wonder if peace is irrelevant to some people now. > > ER… > Apparently it is irrelevant to many people, especially as they identify > themselves with groups for which it seems irrelevant (such as nations, > gangs, mobs, etc.).

There was a documentary recently investigating physical changes of the mind as a result of experiences. It was investigating the effect of violence on children born into such an environment. > Without the mind-numbing influence of group-related goals of conquest and > acquisition,  fueled by greed and hunger for power, many (if not most) > individuals would be happy with a peaceful world… if they really > *thought* about it.

To rough quote Don Quixote, "We live in a world which rewards violence…" Personally I tend to agree. Hence I tend to be in variance with you here. You may have seen my quotes in the past about society defaulting to corruption… [sings] "Hear me now, oh thou bleak and unbearable world, Thou art base and debauched as can be…." > Every goal begins with a thought. > I like to imagine that possibility, anyway.

It gives me greater peace to believe what I believe… The world makes much more sense these days… ER…

Response:

Hi ER, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ER wrote: > Sandie wrote: > > > > Peace is the way to peace. > > > I sometimes wonder if peace is irrelevant to some people now. > > > ER… > > Apparently it is irrelevant to many people, especially as they identify > > themselves with groups for which it seems irrelevant (such as nations, > > gangs, mobs, etc.). > There was a documentary recently investigating physical changes of the mind > as a result of experiences. > It was investigating the effect of violence on children born into such an > environment.

Profound changes, I would imagine. Just as "we are what we eat", "we are what we experience". We need to feed our heads with good things, and sometimes, that is out of our control in this violent world. That is especially so for children… so the violent cycle continues and intensifies. > > Without the mind-numbing influence of group-related goals of conquest and > > acquisition,  fueled by greed and hunger for power, many (if not most) > > individuals would be happy with a peaceful world… if they really > > *thought* about it. > To rough quote Don Quixote, "We live in a world which rewards violence…" > Personally I tend to agree. > Hence I tend to be in variance with you here.

Actually, I agree with you on this, ER. You have a good point. The world *does* reward violence, for individuals as well as groups. It’s just that perpetrating violence in a group is usually "safer" for an individual, especially when it’s justified as being OK, even legal, such as in the wars of the nations. People who might not otherwise be violent are actually trained to hurt other people. Sometimes they’re forced to do so. Even the leaders who arrange the wars are to some degree caught up in a violent system that is bigger than all of us. And as long as they identify with being a cog in the system, they will be subject to the propaganda that insidiously enforces willing acquiescence and participation in the self-destruction. I guess I was just reasoning that if individuals consciously *choose* to remove themselves from that influence, they would think differently. Actually, I *know* that’s true… but not for many, and certainly not for most people. Perhaps I was just singing an idealistic song, but no… peace-lovers will always be in the minority. > You may have seen my quotes in the past about society defaulting to > corruption…

Yes. > [sings] > "Hear me now, oh thou bleak and unbearable world, > Thou art base and debauched as can be…."

Too true. > > Every goal begins with a thought. > > I like to imagine that possibility, anyway. > It gives me greater peace to believe what I believe… > The world makes much more sense these days…

It’s a realistic view. Mine is not far different from yours. I, also, believe that there is no hope for this corrupt world. But I believe in another, future world. A peaceful one. ER, I almost quoted scripture Sandie — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

Response:

Sandie wrote: > Hi ER,

[bow] > > There was a documentary recently investigating physical changes of the mind > > as a result of experiences. > > It was investigating the effect of violence on children born into such an > > environment. > Profound changes, I would imagine. Just as "we are what we eat", "we are what > we experience". We need to feed our heads with good things,

Another point they made was that if you don’t use it, you loose it… If children aren’t stimulated in certain areas such as interpersonal relationship communications, their capacity is diminished… That part of the brain function is not fully developed… I think there was a suggestion that this might allow other areas to develop better, btw. > and sometimes, that > is out of our control in this violent world. That is especially so for > children… so the violent cycle continues and intensifies.

The cycle of violence becomes a "normal" part of existence… > > To rough quote Don Quixote, "We live in a world which rewards violence…" > > Personally I tend to agree. > > Hence I tend to be in variance with you here. > Actually, I agree with you on this, ER. You have a good point. The world *does* > reward violence, for individuals as well as groups. > It’s just that perpetrating violence in a group is usually "safer" for an > individual, especially when it’s justified as being OK, even legal, such as in > the wars of the nations.

War as in legalized murder… > People who might not otherwise be violent are actually > trained to hurt other people. Sometimes they’re forced to do so.

But then again you could see it from the other perspective where children are trained to be non violent. I think it is a case of: "Give me the boy till aged 7, and I will show you the man…" > I guess I was just reasoning that if individuals consciously *choose* to remove > themselves from that influence, they would think differently. Actually, I > *know* that’s true… but not for many, and certainly not for most people.

You may not have much of a choice if you are trapped in a violent environment. > Perhaps I was just singing an idealistic song, but no… peace-lovers will > always be in the minority.

"There go I but for the grace of god"… As an atheist I see it simply as virtually anyone is capable of violence given the "right" circumstances. > > > Every goal begins with a thought. > > > I like to imagine that possibility, anyway. > > It gives me greater peace to believe what I believe… > > The world makes much more sense these days… > It’s a realistic view. > Mine is not far different from yours. I, also, believe that there is no hope > for this corrupt world. But I believe in another, future world. A peaceful one.

I am looking forward to my well deserved rest after a long and stressful day… I am not being literal here… ;o) > ER, I almost quoted scripture

I put one in for you (above)… I admire your restraint. I am not that restrained… ;o) "Life? Don’t talk to me about life…" [Marvin the melancholy robot from the HHGTTG] ER…

Response:

Oh!!! Really?? Just happened to happen to open that particular one, didja? Hahahahahahaa!!!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I just opened one of yours to find you need to return to auto-ignore.. That’s how it works chump. BT2000XL He rarely reads anyone anymore…Amazing he can still manage to post, what with all the people he "ignores." jules Scuse me? Were you squawking at me yet again? It all sounds the same when you do that pantywadded girl’s blouse tissfit thing you always do — it’s hard to tell if you’re screaming at me, Hy, True, Shard, Jules, Pip, Fang, Gargy, TC, Mak, Rogue, Tegan, Aine, Doc, Ren, Jacky, the Professor, Maryann, and the rest…… Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net — Jules — Never write, if you can talk. Never talk, if you can nod. Never nod, if you can wink. — Martin Lomasney — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

You are in no position to be counseling anyone, bendy. You just need to lay back and let the Thorazine do its work….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yer lashing out in anger.  Let the anger go. Chronic kowtowing catamite syndrome. Incessant following of second rate usenet trolls, in slouched lackey position, has left bendover permanently hunched. Entirely unable to express any original concepts. Cannot verbalize beyond what was said by the person /s he considers himself to be following that day. Fixated on dominant women. Possibly a result of oedipal relationship with his mother. Suggested Treatments: Extreme shock therapy. Lobotomy. Good heavens!  Chive has finally got a clue! Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information. What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Response:

Yer lashing out in anger.  Let the anger go. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chronic kowtowing catamite syndrome. Incessant following of second rate usenet trolls, in slouched lackey position, has left bendover permanently hunched. Entirely unable to express any original concepts. Cannot verbalize beyond what was said by the person /s he considers himself to be following that day. Fixated on dominant women. Possibly a result of oedipal relationship with his mother. Suggested Treatments: Extreme shock therapy. Lobotomy. Good heavens!  Chive has finally got a clue! Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Response:

After you called her names, you expect her to buy your lies? heeheehee… Or did you forget you did that? Heh, enigma and I have already chatted a bit, and found we have a lot in common. I guess you’ll take that to mean her husband of 13 years beats on her, too? And you just "know it for a fact", right? hahahahaha, you should be writing for some trash tabloid. Or — does your mental condition preclude you from employment?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words Ummm I know people who work with AIDS victims does that mean they have aids too.. The link between her mother-in-law and working in a battered woman’s shelter is silly….   What man would beat his wife and then LET them work at a woman’s battered home??     I personally have NEVER been touched by my soul mate BUT   I lived with abuse in my home growing up….. To the point that at 15 it was better to take my chances on my own and leave …..  Abuse is a vicious cycle so viscous that my brother beats his wife and his son, but he was a first class coward while growing up!  I cant even bring my self to spank or yell at my kids….. Have you ever lived in a abusive situation? Rhyanon told me that this was the case. Her MIL got away from her abuser and then went to work in the shelter to help other victims. You will concede that this is a good motivation for someone to help others? — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n

Response:

Yeah, but what I was also gonna say  is…… THIS CRAP AGAIN? *yawn*  ….. You really oughtta let more time go by between lame gambits, chyvesey. Oh, and…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, Mr. All so knowing Chive!! I’ll beat Rhy to this. Proof it!!! I mean with legal papers. You know, police reports, court orders, in other words document what bull shit you claim to know. And why are you cross posting to alt. phychology? Do you need help? Maybe they can recommend a good mental health practioner for you and Birdbrain. If there is any abuse, many states required you to get involved by calling the police. Have you done that? Or are you afraid of being busted for filing a false police report? The police don’t like people who waste their time. You have been responding to Rhy outside of the alledge  abuse threads. You, Birdbrain, Ren and David are so full of shit that you could fertilize a state the size of Alaska. Into the permante kf with you. And tell your butt buddy, I post with my correct email sometimes spam blocked, some times not. I don’t hide behind a third party, like you do. Scarlett the spam fighting cat from California

Response:

How convenient! [smirk] Still, same goes for you: PROVE IT, liar! hehehehehehehhee!!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, Mr. All so knowing Chive!! I’ll beat Rhy to this. Proof it!!! I mean with legal papers. You know, police reports, court orders, in other words document what bull shit you claim to know. And why are you cross posting to alt. phychology? Do you need help? Maybe they can recommend a good mental health practioner for you and Birdbrain. If there is any abuse, many states required you to get involved by calling the police. Have you done that? Or are you afraid of being busted for filing a false police report? The police don’t like people who waste their time. You have been responding to Rhy outside of the alledge  abuse threads. You, Birdbrain, Ren and David are so full of shit that you could fertilize a state the size of Alaska. Into the permante kf with you. And tell your butt buddy, I post with my correct email sometimes spam blocked, some times not. I don’t hide behind a third party, like you do. Scarlett the spam fighting cat from California You are obviously not reading what is being said. There ARE NO reports, documents, etc because she WILL NOT get help. It would do no good to file a report for her because, even if they took a domestic abuse report from someone outside of the situation she would deny the claims out of fear for herself and her children. Instead of going nuts with anger over this go visit a women’s shelter or an emergency room. They will tell you how these things work. — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n

Response:

Chronic kowtowing catamite syndrome. Incessant following of second rate usenet trolls, in slouched lackey position, has left bendover permanently hunched. Entirely unable to express any original concepts. Cannot verbalize beyond what was said by the person /s he considers himself to be following that day. Fixated on dominant women. Possibly a result of oedipal relationship with his mother. Suggested Treatments: Extreme shock therapy. Lobotomy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good heavens!  Chive has finally got a clue! Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Do Not Spam.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words Ummm I know people who work with AIDS victims does that mean they have aids too.. The link between her mother-in-law and working in a battered woman’s shelter is silly….   What man would beat his wife and then LET them work at a woman’s battered home??     I personally have NEVER been touched by my soul mate BUT   I lived with abuse in my home growing up….. To the point that at 15 it was better to take my chances on my own and leave …..  Abuse is a vicious cycle so viscous that my brother beats his wife and his son, but he was a first class coward while growing up!  I cant even bring my self to spank or yell at my kids….. Have you ever lived in a abusive situation?

Rhyanon told me that this was the case. Her MIL got away from her abuser and then went to work in the shelter to help other victims. You will concede that this is a good motivation for someone to help others? — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, Mr. All so knowing Chive!! I’ll beat Rhy to this. Proof it!!! I mean with legal papers. You know, police reports, court orders, in other words document what bull shit you claim to know. And why are you cross posting to alt. phychology? Do you need help? Maybe they can recommend a good mental health practioner for you and Birdbrain. If there is any abuse, many states required you to get involved by calling the police. Have you done that? Or are you afraid of being busted for filing a false police report? The police don’t like people who waste their time. You have been responding to Rhy outside of the alledge  abuse threads. You, Birdbrain, Ren and David are so full of shit that you could fertilize a state the size of Alaska. Into the permante kf with you. And tell your butt buddy, I post with my correct email sometimes spam blocked, some times not. I don’t hide behind a third party, like you do. Scarlett the spam fighting cat from California

You are obviously not reading what is being said. There ARE NO reports, documents, etc because she WILL NOT get help. It would do no good to file a report for her because, even if they took a domestic abuse report from someone outside of the situation she would deny the claims out of fear for herself and her children. Instead of going nuts with anger over this go visit a women’s shelter or an emergency room. They will tell you how these things work. — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

Rhyno appears to be bothered by things that those of us who have lives would never dwell on. Oldone Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words

Ummm I know people who work with AIDS victims does that mean they have aids too.. The link between her mother-in-law and working in a battered woman’s shelter is silly….   What man would beat his wife and then LET them work at a woman’s battered home??     I personally have NEVER been touched by my soul mate BUT   I lived with abuse in my home growing up….. To the point that at 15 it was better to take my chances on my own and leave …..  Abuse is a vicious cycle so viscous that my brother beats his wife and his son, but he was a first class coward while growing up!  I cant even bring my self to spank or yell at my kids….. Have you ever lived in a abusive situation? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment.- Chive Before you buy.

Response:

Ok, Mr. All so knowing Chive!! I’ll beat Rhy to this. Proof it!!! I mean with legal papers. You know, police reports, court orders, in other words document what bull shit you claim to know. And why are you cross posting to alt. phychology? Do you need help? Maybe they can recommend a good mental health practioner for you and Birdbrain. If there is any abuse, many states required you to get involved by calling the police. Have you done that? Or are you afraid of being busted for filing a false police report? The police don’t like people who waste their time. You have been responding to Rhy outside of the alledge  abuse threads. You, Birdbrain, Ren and David are so full of shit that you could fertilize a state the size of Alaska. Into the permante kf with you. And tell your butt buddy, I post with my correct email sometimes spam blocked, some times not. I don’t hide behind a third party, like you do. Scarlett the spam fighting cat from California

Response:

Good heavens!  Chive has finally got a clue! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Response:

Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;)

I’ve been doing the same thing, BT.  When I see a Rhyanon header I simply ignore it.  However, I have been replying to her and Tails regarding DV.  Rhyanon admits that her husband’s mother words for a battered womans shelter.  It’s quite possible that her husbands father abused their mother, and DV tends to run in families.  Rhyanon thinks this information will give ammunition to people who "hate" her, but so far, I’ve only read posts from her demonstrating how much she hates herself.  Additionally, she calls admittedly calls herself a misanthrope and attacks/annoys everyone who tries to discuss issues on Usenet.  She has made it clear that she thinks Usenet is a "video game" when clearly, it is not.  So, based on the historical record of Rhyanon’s posts, I can only go on what she has said.  As a result, any preliminary analysis reveals a beautiful, intelligent, and creative woman who has spun a web of lies, deceit, and denial to mask her abusive relationship with her husband.  Rhyanon knows that the only way out is to change her lifestyle and remove herself from the threat. But, she can’t, so she posts reply after reply, flame after flame, and troll after troll to Usenet — all in the hope that nobody will notice her anger, abuse, and sadness.  Due to her self-denial, Rhyanon doesn’t seem to realize that she actually *reveals* more about herself through every angry post she makes.  Rhyanon has admitted that she is a narcissist and a misanthrope, in her own words.  The narcissim is evident as she "top-posts" to every thread, and effectively negates the importance of every reply made beneath her.  When Rhyanon "top-posts" she is screming, "Look at me! I’m important!  I need attention!" like the classical narcissist that she admits that she is.  This is only one aspect of narcissistic personality disorder.  The other aspect is the inability to love others.  This is where her admitted misanthropy comes in.  In every "top-post" that Rhyanon makes, she neither contributes to the debate, adds information to the discussion, or helps others with advice.  What she does, is attack willy-nilly and without recourse to the thread.  Again, Rhyanon screams, "I’m important!  You’re not!  My top-post makes everything in this thread meaningless!  I’m the only one who is important!  Everyone else can take a hike!"  This misanthropy is only symptomatic of the underlying NPD.  It merely demonstrates Rhyanon’s self-hatred and her inabilty to show empathy towards others. Rhyanon has posted over 20,000 Usenet posts that are only "top-posts" — posts that do not contribute to the thread by adding information.  What this serves to reflect is Rhyanon’s deep-seated psychosis and inability to communicate and get along with others.  Since  Rhyanon cannot maintain interpersonal relationship other than those which are abusive, she must feed into her psychosis to keep it "functioning".  This means that she must become the abuser herself.  This pathological condition suggests that Rhyanon needs serious, immediate treatment. – Chive Before you buy.

Response:

And I just opened one of yours to find you need to return to auto-ignore.. That’s how it works chump. BT2000XL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He rarely reads anyone anymore…Amazing he can still manage to post, what with all the people he "ignores." jules Scuse me? Were you squawking at me yet again? It all sounds the same when you do that pantywadded girl’s blouse tissfit thing you always do — it’s hard to tell if you’re screaming at me, Hy, True, Shard, Jules, Pip, Fang, Gargy, TC, Mak, Rogue, Tegan, Aine, Doc, Ren, Jacky, the Professor, Maryann, and the rest…… Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net — Jules — Never write, if you can talk. Never talk, if you can nod. Never nod, if you can wink. — Martin Lomasney

– * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

Thanks, but I have a – dresses – a plenty, some of them even designed by real designers, lo and behold.

I do care about Rhyno.. I would send her an Xmas present if I had an address

Response:

He rarely reads anyone anymore…Amazing he can still manage to post, what with all the people he "ignores." jules – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scuse me? Were you squawking at me yet again? It all sounds the same when you do that pantywadded girl’s blouse tissfit thing you always do — it’s hard to tell if you’re screaming at me, Hy, True, Shard, Jules, Pip, Fang, Gargy, TC, Mak, Rogue, Tegan, Aine, Doc, Ren, Jacky, the Professor, Maryann, and the rest…… Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

– Jules — Never write, if you can talk. Never talk, if you can nod. Never nod, if you can wink. — Martin Lomasney

Response:

<snip girl’s blouse tissfit    Damn Birdtribe. Nice tirade about someone that you could care less about.

No shit, wot? And the projection! Damn, he described himself to a tee, without intending to! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -:) Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW photo page: http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html

Response:

It took all of two minutes to write.. Believe me.. that was not a tirade..I am just feeling lively today;) Tell that to her who posted several threads I was not reading with headers to troll me.. Blinded by the dark? BTW.. I do care about Rhyno.. I would send her an Xmas present if I had an address.. I just don’t care for some of her gambits and treatment of people. I even care about you Shard.    Otherwise you wouldn’t post about me *soft chuckle*.

Something like that;) Yer Pal BirdTribe Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW photo page: http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html

– * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

Scuse me? Were you squawking at me yet again? It all sounds the same when you do that pantywadded girl’s blouse tissfit thing you always do — it’s hard to tell if you’re screaming at me, Hy, True, Shard, Jules, Pip, Fang, Gargy, TC, Mak, Rogue, Tegan, Aine, Doc, Ren, Jacky, the Professor, Maryann, and the rest……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

It took all of two minutes to write.. Believe me.. that was not a tirade..I am just feeling lively today;) Tell that to her who posted several threads I was not reading with headers to troll me.. Blinded by the dark? BTW.. I do care about Rhyno.. I would send her an Xmas present if I had an address.. I just don’t care for some of her gambits and treatment of people. I even care about you Shard.

   Otherwise you wouldn’t post about me *soft chuckle*. Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW photo page: http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;)    Damn Birdtribe. Nice tirade about someone that you could care less about.

It took all of two minutes to write.. Believe me.. that was not a tirade..I am just feeling lively today;) Tell that to her who posted several threads I was not reading with headers to troll me.. Blinded by the dark? BTW.. I do care about Rhyno.. I would send her an Xmas present if I had an address.. I just don’t care for some of her gambits and treatment of people. I even care about you Shard. BT2000XL Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW photo page: http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html

– * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

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Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;) Yer Pal BirdTribe — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com and 50Mb, CGI and PHP, PostGreSQL and Linux Turbine Generator only $100.00 per year with no hidden fees – http://www.mosthost.net

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Does it piss you off I rarely read you? Do you get your panties in a knot when you make a header especially for me and I simply pass it by without opening it? Does it occur to you that you are simply an amusement and I find you not very amusing? Does it bother you that your life is a dead end street while mine is wide open and taking in action? Does it bother you that your leg humpers have no brains or wit and you have to carry the half unravelled ball all by yourself when you thought you had back-up? Does it bother you that I see all these things that DO bother you? heh.. Croak froggie;)

   Damn Birdtribe. Nice tirade about someone that you could care less about. Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW photo page: http://members.xoom.com/wintershard/photo.html

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On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >OTS

You’re now a vacuum cleaner? _________________________________________________ If I had a life, I wouldn’t know what to feed it.

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oh… I wasn’t concerned with how many it could feed… I was more interested in how many people could fit into it honest pudding wrestling, ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wanderer wrote in message <38D55D46.A8C4E…@albedo.net>… > Massively big, huge, feeds eight >Bill >ric wrote: >> LOL >> Wanderer wrote in message >> >PPPppffffffffffttttttt pot kettle black >> >Bill >> where have I seen that before? LOL >> could be all the old discussions about what should and should ot be posted here >> that prompted the question… or could just be humour >> by the way, could I borrow your kettle for some chocolate pudding?… I’m >> wondering though, is it big enough for two adults? >> honest cooking, ric >> >Robert Maas wrote: >> >> >>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >> >> >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… >> >> >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… >> >> > Ah, another interpretation of the post. >> >> > You naughty poet! ) >> >> p…@asarian-host.org replied: >> >> <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> >> >> Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy? >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

…. .. ..

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        Massively big, huge, feeds eight Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ric wrote: > LOL > Wanderer wrote in message <38D458BC.5C3D7…@albedo.net>… > >PPPppffffffffffttttttt pot kettle black > >Bill > where have I seen that before? LOL > could be all the old discussions about what should and should ot be posted here > that prompted the question… or could just be humour > by the way, could I borrow your kettle for some chocolate pudding?… I’m > wondering though, is it big enough for two adults? > honest cooking, ric > >Robert Maas wrote: > >> >>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > >> >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… > >> >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… > >> > Ah, another interpretation of the post. > >> > You naughty poet! ) > >> p…@asarian-host.org replied: > >> <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> > >> Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy? > >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html > >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

– http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

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LOL Wanderer wrote in message <38D458BC.5C3D7…@albedo.net>… >PPPppffffffffffttttttt pot kettle black >Bill

where have I seen that before? LOL could be all the old discussions about what should and should ot be posted here that prompted the question… or could just be humour by the way, could I borrow your kettle for some chocolate pudding?… I’m wondering though, is it big enough for two adults? honest cooking, ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Robert Maas wrote: >> >>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >> >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… >> >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… >> > Ah, another interpretation of the post. >> > You naughty poet! ) >> p…@asarian-host.org replied: >> <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> >> Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy? >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html >http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

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Robert Maas wrote in message … ><<I am lonely offline in the physical world… sexuality is part of >that… and though I’m not actively seeking a sexual relationship at >the moment, I am seeking offline contacts and socialization in the >physical world…>> >I’m in the same situation as you, except any time I say I’m seeking to >meet somebody in the Real World, a bunch of people castigate me, >saying I should just accept that I’ll be alone for the rest of my >life.

I think there will always be people who try to run your life to varying degrees, some offering positive advice or suggestions, some offering negative criticism or abuse… some will respect boundaries and simply present the advice or abuse once or twice in a non-intrusive way… and some will not respect anything and demand you follow their instructions or they’ll abuse and insult you forever anytime you show your face… I suggest that if anyone has concrete suggestions for improving your lot in life, then thank them and consider their thoughts seriously… and if some shout insults or just put you down even when offering suggestions, then they have their own bias and problems and take what they say or write with a grain of salt – or completely disregard it if it appears too often and repeats useless information not aimed toward really helping you… in any case, you have the choice to give what others do and say the attention you wish to give it… if you let others determine your self image, you’re at the mercy of strangers who don’t know you and don’t really care about you… some have their own problems and seek punching bags and you’ll become theirs if you give them the opportunity… I know, I have… I suggest you stay away from those who castigate you and focus our attention and energy on what you seek and those who support and offer positive thoughts and constructive advice… honest love, ric    "Reading is equivalent to thinking with someone else’s head     instead of with one’s own."                                       ~ Arthur Schopenhauer ~

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<<The more I yearn, the less likely it is.>> Exactly what kind of interpersonal relationship do you yearn for?

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<<I am lonely offline in the physical world… sexuality is part of that… and though I’m not actively seeking a sexual relationship at the moment, I am seeking offline contacts and socialization in the physical world…>> I’m in the same situation as you, except any time I say I’m seeking to meet somebody in the Real World, a bunch of people castigate me, saying I should just accept that I’ll be alone for the rest of my life.

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Anything we can ahhhhh "bring up?"    hahahahaha Hugs Eddie (Chief) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -poet wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > In article 8b0nu4$11o…@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com, ric at > asl…@REMOVE-BEFORE-SENDINGegroups.com wrote on 3/18/00 14:11: > > and personally I think if one is afraid to discuss sexuality seriously or > > flirt playfully, then one of the reasons for loneliness seems obvious… > I’m open – er, for discussion. <g> > — > For more information about this posting service, contact: > h…@asarian-host.org — for all info about our server. > If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: > http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

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PPPppffffffffffttttttt pot kettle black Bill Robert Maas wrote: > >>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… > >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… > > Ah, another interpretation of the post. > > You naughty poet! ) > p…@asarian-host.org replied: > <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> > Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy?

– http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

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On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:19:00 GMT r…@shell.netmagic.net (Robert Maas) wrote: > >>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… > >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… > > Ah, another interpretation of the post. > > You naughty poet! ) > p…@asarian-host.org replied: > <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> > Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that > kind of fantasy?

Do you mean that this group is not about faqs? <giggle> — Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway – http://www.talkway.com – Talk more ways (sm)

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I don’t know if even that exists, as according to the learned men of science and philosophy, my experience of red is not even real. If my experience is not real, then I’m even less than a ghost. And then we get to the even thornier problem of "I". Am "I" a hankering for a snack? Am "I" the one who is moved by some attractive actress on the screen? Am "I" some occasional uncharitable thoughts? Am "I" the one who formulates "policy"…am "I" even aware of "myself"? The world can exist or not, so long as it is able to fool itself with meaningless logical chains. Do "I" love. OTS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -poet wrote in message <200003182203.PAA04…@asarian-host.org>… >x-no-archive: yes >In article 8b0tta$nn…@news5.svr.pol.co.uk, Nothing Face at >ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk wrote on 3/18/00 16:03: >> Oh… I didn’t realise, this newsgroup is for corporeal beings only? >> Ah….hmmm. >I’d rather touch your soul, your essence… >– >For more information about this posting service, contact: >h…@asarian-host.org — for all info about our server. >If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: >http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

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>>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… >> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… > Ah, another interpretation of the post. > You naughty poet! )

p…@asarian-host.org replied: <<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy?

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Robert Maas wrote in message … >>>> Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >>> Now if you would just lick a little to the right… >>> aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……………… >> Ah, another interpretation of the post. >> You naughty poet! ) >p…@asarian-host.org replied: ><<Not naughty, just fantasising a little…>> >Are you sure this is an appropriate newsgroup for that kind of fantasy?

there’s no charter or set of rules for this public group, so what is or is not appropriate is a fairly wide open area… and personally I think if one is afraid to discuss sexuality seriously or flirt playfully, then one of the reasons for loneliness seems obvious… I think one needs to get comfortable with themselves before one can be comfortable with others and we are, whether we like it or not and whether we acknowledge it or not, physical beings in physical bodies and the most satisfying sharing includes the physical world and sexuality… so I welcome discusion of all issues related to loneliness myself… and I view sexuality as a major part of loneliness… after all, I’m not a all lonely online… I can’t begin to keep up with my mail and groups and online social contacts and responsibilities… I am lonely offline in the physical world… sexuality is part of that… and though I’m not actively seeking a sexual relationship at the moment, I am seeking offline contacts and socialization in the physical world… that’s my perspective, honest love, ric     "Without a sense of urgency, desire loses its value."                                                             ~ Jim Rohn ~

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Oh… I didn’t realise, this newsgroup is for corporeal beings only? Ah….hmmm. OTS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ric wrote in message <8b0rke$1tt…@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>… >x-no-archive: yes >poet wrote in message <200003182020.NAA04…@asarian-host.org>… >>x-no-archive: yes >>In article 8b0nu4$11o…@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com, ric at >>asl…@REMOVE-BEFORE-SENDINGegroups.com wrote on 3/18/00 14:11: >>> and personally I think if one is afraid to discuss sexuality seriously or >>> flirt playfully, then one of the reasons for loneliness seems obvious… >>I’m open – er, for discussion. <g> >LOL… well then your loneliness may not be based on your physical inhibitions >as much as other thing… I know mine isn’t… I can be very solitay and >comfortable in my own space, but I love being with touchy-feely people who hug >with their whole body… a hug that lifts one off the ground is a beautiful hug >for me >part of my physical loneliness stems from being too comfortable and uninhibited >physically and sexually and still having intense respect and sensuality for this >body and other bodies… most people I’ve met so far have the balance… the few >I’ve grown close to physically were not all sexual partners… one was a dear >girl who loved to cuddle and hug as much as I did and I was more parent to her >than anything else (she came to live with me as her first stop away from home… >I used to kinda have an open house for he first five years of the nineties and a >network of Disney kids showed up at my door (sometimes unannounced) seeking a >place to stay while they followed their dream to work at Disney)… she learned >how to lay with a man by trusting me to be her experimental body… sensuality >and being open physically is not always purely sexual… not that there’s no >arousal… I think there’s always some arousal as long as we’re breathing, >though some are so deep in denial of their bodies they may not be consciously >aware of it… still, whether acknowledged or not, arousal does not have to be >taken it’s full course unless two people want it to go there… it can still be >enjoyed… >honest love, ric >   "anywhere is walking distance if you’ve got the time" >                                                ~ Steven Wright ~

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Only in your own, much too critical eyes… don’t be so hard on yourself… the world is hard enough on us, without any help from within… take heart, Ollie…                             sincerely,                             Michael On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >OTS

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        No way man, yer cool. Bill Nothing Face wrote: > Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > OTS

– http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

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        I agree! with Rainbow that is! Bill Rainbow Knight wrote: > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000 "Nothing Face" > <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > > OTS > I disagree. > — > Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums > Talkway – http://www.talkway.com – Talk more ways (sm)

– http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/loneliness.html http://www.crosswinds.net/~loneliness/poetry.html

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>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >OTS

Feeling kind of low? What happened that made you feel so? Feeling kind of low? What are you going to do now that you know?

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I disagree.

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There is nothing that I can know, for I do not exist as a coherent whole. I am myth. OTS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John wrote in message <6l24dso5hn6fticontgobi03jpd7hsr…@4ax.com>… >>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >>Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >>OTS >Feeling kind of low? >What happened that made you feel so? >Feeling kind of low? >What are you going to do now that you know?

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I like myths… and mythsters too… honest mythology, ric Nothing Face wrote >There is nothing that I can know, for I do not exist as a coherent whole. I >am myth. >OTS >John wrote in message >>>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" ><ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >>>Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. >>>OTS >>Feeling kind of low? >>What happened that made you feel so? >>Feeling kind of low? >>What are you going to do now that you know?

..

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On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 01:04:15 -0500 "ric" <asl…@REMOVE-BEFORE-SENDINGegroups.com> wrote: > I like myths… and mythsters too… > honest mythology, ric

Mythical Mystical Moaning Monsters Mumbling? > Nothing Face wrote >> There is nothing that I can know, for I do not exist as >> a coherent whole. I am myth. >> OTS

Well, if you don’t exist you can’t suck! Nor post, for that matter. Off-Topic Semper! OTSOH (Of The Supposed Other Hand), as Descartes said: "I post, then I exist". Except that you don’t want to discuss with Descartes (who is not a member of this forum) you have better to accept this. Best myths and have pun! Ra… <disappears> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >John wrote in message > >>>On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" > ><ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > >>>Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > >>>OTS > >>Feeling kind of low? > >>What happened that made you feel so? > >>Feeling kind of low? > >>What are you going to do now that you know? > …

Remove MAPS from the address to reply.                 *** Homepage *** <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/>                 *** ASL RAF FAQ *** <http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/aslfaq.html> — Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway – http://www.talkway.com – Talk more ways (sm)

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Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. OTS

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this makes me think of Ann Wilson Schaef’s comment that when the "therapist" says to the "patient" in response to some self-negative observation the "patient" makes, the message to the "patient" is: "wrong again.  you still don’t get it." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Maddogg wrote: > Only in your own, much too critical eyes… don’t be > so hard on yourself… the world is hard enough on > us, without any help from within… take heart, Ollie… >                             sincerely, >                             Michael > On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000, "Nothing Face" > <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > >Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > >OTS

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On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:59:43 -0000 "Nothing Face" <ol…@sandcastle.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > Oh, I suck. -< DOH! >-. > OTS

I disagree. — Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway – http://www.talkway.com – Talk more ways (sm)

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And why did the author write it all about men? The author wrote it about me. The author hates me. That weenie!!! -SoloMonkey

Hahaa!  Every time I get out the DSM-IV it’s hard to narrow it to just ONE disorder because I fit them all! Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

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Hi Bro John, Naw, it’s off the net, called Malignant Self Love, Narcissism Revisited by Sam Vaknin, Ph.D.  The site has sooo much info about the book, and I downloaded and printed the whole thing. It’s : http:/www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/msla.html and the specific site of most asked questions about narcissism is: http:/www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/faq1.html I have BPD, but the lines between it and NPD blur somewhat, especially since my mother was so pathalogically narcissist..I guess!  When I read this guys stuff I don’t get this evil image of an all destroying mother…somewhere in there is a more tempered version.  Like the BPD stuff….have to water it down, then you will find me swimming in there somewhere. Thanks very much for waffling all around my thread  :-) Anytime, mate. –Tezza (no, I’m not one.  was given to me by one of your native sons long ago) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is depressing me.  I feel like I’m drowning.  I feel like I’m relating it all to myself, too.  I really don’t like this feeling.  And why did the author write it all about men?  My mother is a narcissist!  I want it to relate to her. –Tezza What’s the book called? Is it Narcissism by Alexander Lowen? I just finished reading that not long ago and posted a fair bit about narcissism. Its not nice to have to admit. But we all display narcissistic tendencies to one degree or another. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Its not a dirty word – though some would view it that way. Just a coping mechanism learned at a tender age. My mum’s an unbelievable narcissist and for years I’ve resented her tendency to focus on herself constantly. Now, I’m having to learn to be less judgemental since I understand now the causes for it a little better. I guess she pushes the buttons of the denial of my own narcissism. Sorry to waffle on. Brother John

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And why did the author write it all about men? The author wrote it about me. The author hates me. That weenie!!! :p -SoloMonkey

Bwahahahahaha!  At least I can still type a laugh while smiling  :-) Thanks. –Tez

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And why did the author write it all about men?

The author wrote it about me. The author hates me. That weenie!!! :p -SoloMonkey — "These rapid alterations between absolute overvaluation to complete devaluation of others make the maintenance of long term interpersonal relationship all but impossible." -SHMUEL VAKNIN

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is depressing me.  I feel like I’m drowning.  I feel like I’m relating it all to myself, too.  I really don’t like this feeling.  And why did the author write it all about men?  My mother is a narcissist!  I want it to relate to her. –Tezza

What’s the book called? Is it Narcissism by Alexander Lowen? I just finished reading that not long ago and posted a fair bit about narcissism. Its not nice to have to admit. But we all display narcissistic tendencies to one degree or another. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Its not a dirty word – though some would view it that way. Just a coping mechanism learned at a tender age. My mum’s an unbelievable narcissist and for years I’ve resented her tendency to focus on herself constantly. Now, I’m having to learn to be less judgemental since I understand now the causes for it a little better. I guess she pushes the buttons of the denial of my own narcissism. Sorry to waffle on. Brother John

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is depressing me.  I feel like I’m drowning.  I feel like I’m relating it all to myself, too.  I really don’t like this feeling.  And why did the author write it all about men?  My mother is a narcissist!  I want it to relate to her. –Tezza

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questions!                       Carol LEARN from the Past…Do not Live in it….Live to the FULLEST in the Present and to SET Goals….Grab onto the Future to follow GOALS and DREAMS!!  (Carol)

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Oh Andre, lighten up! jen

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Oh Andre, lighten up!

Ah, more condecension… The refuge of those who don’t have a good answer is to divert the matter onto the person that they can’t respond properly to. Very interesting… jen

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

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No, Andre, this wasn’t condescension, I really mean it: LIGHTEN UP!!! That was the whole point to my post — we’ve all got to lighten up (me incuded). That’s the key to successful relationships. Stop dwelling on moral rights and wrongs, and concentrate on pleasure and fun, which leads to trust and respect. It’s no fun to walk around expecting and suspecting bad out of people. In fact, it’s downright counterproductive. Andre, I’m sincerely sorry your ex burned you so badly. I have a hunch you enjoyed life’s pleasures and had more fun before all that. But I guess I could see how one could boomerang and adopt certain moral values as a result of such horrible treatment by a loved one. You had lots of fun, lots of pleasure with her… which led to lots of trust and respect to a level most of us could never imagine…. all to get thrown back in your face with the utmost disrespect and betrayal. You got burned. Badly. My deepest wish for you is to learn to trust again. Learn it’s okay to be yourself, have fun to the depth you did before, want what you wanted before, without it backfiring so terribly. Whether my ameteur psychology is totally offbase or what, I sincerely hope the best for you, don’t ask me why!   This is my olive branch, if you choose to take it… jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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On the concluding pages, the author proposes her solution — here are a few nuggets to chew on — am interested in your thoughts (yes, even yours Andre!

How charmingly condescending… (since Andre has accused me of not being eloquent enough to get my point across effectively, I will take liberties here and type out the ‘point’ from the author’s own words.)

" Again, Andre, you are missing my points. Or, maybe the discussion is about subtleties that go too easily over your black-and-white head. " This was in response to my having written: " here’s to NO games, and NO lies, from anyone, hmm ? No ‘acting’ either ". I would still love to know what " point " you had, that required yet another set of condescension, when I was expressing a hope for more *honest* relationships, from the get go. Which, by your own words, appears to be somehting that you’ve not yet figured out how to make happen 24/7 in your own life, which is what kicked off a lot of this discussion. So, to me, your comment about my " not getting subtleties " reads as another *game* that *you* chose to play, only this one is with me, and not your present guy. Well, I *don’t* choose to play such games. I do reserve to myself the right to call anyone on their actions and words, as they have the same right towards my words and actions. So, I called you about what you were playing at, and got a snippy response, which, to be honest, I figured that you would come back with. As a result of my marriage, I now know a few of the games that *some* women play ( or, ought I write "…girls play ", as I don’t believe that men or women do this ? ), and I can see them coming from way off. Thank you for making my case for me. Onwards…   First she raises this question: "Since staying in a marriage has become increasingly optional, why don’t we concern ourselves not with laws that make it harder to divorce but with relationships that will make the people who are unhappiest in it now — women — happier, so they will WANT to stay?" <big snip — i will add here, i think this applies to men as well — what would make men happier?

In many cases, about the same things that would make women happy. I can’t speak for what would make boys and girls happy, as that changes from moment to moment. And, I see the present spate of divorce as one element of the *immaturity* of many people who are chronologically adults in todays societies. Plus, here is one example of the author *ass*uming that one sex is more unhappy in the institution of marriage. I don’t see any *evidence* for this assumption, and it greatly weakens her case. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then she challenges our typical response, that we all just need a good dose of "self-improvement," i.e., we are all just spoiled rotten with bad morals, so we don’t have the moral and emotional maturity to make a marriage work (men can be included here as well, but her book addresses it from the woman’s pov): "Self-improvement is immensely seductive — God knows every inch of women has been scrutinized, criticized, and measured, altered in the name of winning more love — but it will only sabotage, not ensure, the loving marriage you want. Conventional wisdon will always insist otherwise, because its ‘wisdon’ is broadcast to you from right inside the very structure you’re challenging. Step outside that framework. Better yet, don’t even go in. You can have marriage without following such pleasure-negating rules. "You are not a moral project, made even better by more and more giving, less and less wanting. The betterment of YOU, morally, only reinforces the single standard that declares men uncontrollable and unalterable and you endlessly flexible, responsive and accommodating. This is the very bargain that has left you in marriage shock, feeling all alone and wondering why you’re trying so hard while the Witness [her name for what I've been terming here "the voice of the Wife"], breathing down your neck, urges you to try harder still. "Isn’t it interestng that the culture still turns its eye accusingly, beseechingly, toward women to save the social order — by fixing and changing not it but HER [I might add, you could say HIM here, too, with different but similar effect]

Well, she’s just *so* wrong. I could write volumes on this, but other writers have done it better than I, and, for that matter, I have some appointments later this afternoon. So, I’ll limit myself to saying that the growth as people of most of the folks right on this NG flies in the face of her thesis. Then finally, she proposes her antidote (which took too long in coming, and then was only skimmed over, quite unfortunately IMO): She starts by explaining this survey they did at New Women magazine, polling women of every age on the primary purpose of marriage. (and no, Igor, it’s not a very scientifically valid poll, but interesting nonetheless — can’t prove, but provokes thought).  Survey choices were: to raise a family, to foster spiritual growth, to build character, to be financially stable, to have fun.

… Which are not mutually exclusive goals. "The results; of five thousand women, those who chose ‘having fun’ as the primary purpose of marriage were most likely to call their marriages ‘great’. "They enjoy the best sex, get the most respect and attention from their husbands, think the least about divorcing, and would marry the same men all over again. In short, by all measures available, they have the most fun! "Yet, despite the clear and direct connection between valuing fun in marriage and having it, and the deeper and more global marital contentment claimed by those who chose it, a distinct minority of readers actually marked the ‘fun’ option.

Which says a lot about the old puritan ethic still being in North American society. We have loads of fun things to do, and the economy is based greatly around fun spending, but we still don’t want to *admit* that fun is important to all aspects of our lives. Well, it *is*. Woody Allen once said that sex is the most fun that you can have without laughing. I would add that it’s even better, when you *can* laugh as a part of it. "The readers’ inclination to trivialize fun becomes not baffling but sad, a powerful reminder of where pleasure fits into our heirarchy of values. Many of us still feel we betray our frivolity, our immaturity, to say outright, ‘what i want most is to have a fun, sexy thing going with my partner.’ yet the evidence is that this is the surest way to deep committment, profound trust, and close, spiritual bond we also want in marriage. Words like honor and duty, forever and compromise, phrases like settling down and taking responsibility– our good conduct– have a way of adding such weight to what started as an easy, fluid, breathing relationship that by the time family and children get thrown in, we begin to believe that pleasure is "selfish." Which is too bad. Because it isn’t. fun is sexy. It’s life-affirming. It’s subversive. It’s possibly what made you a couple in the first place.

And, it’s a great part of honouring your committments, as one reason that you made those committments was that the process of keeping with them, would be greater fun with the one that you chose to commit to. As I said, fun and committment are not two separate states of mind. In the women that the author cites, I would estimate that they have well integrated the two, to make for a great marriage for both spouses. "What’s more, it turns out that pleasure, rather than being something you can have for dessert once a month after loftier, worthier goals are met, seems instead to be the shortest route to these goals. Fun turns into trust; fun creates respect; fun produces a spiritual bond; fun generates intimacy. Seen this way, as a vital catalyst rather than an optional frill, fun– pleasure in relationships, is hardly trivial. "

Now here, I totally agree. Why choose to make a marriage, if fun isn’t going to be a great part of it ? But, as I’ve seen in other areas, many folks today think that " fun " is something that someone *else* makes for them, as opposed to the fun being something that they themselves, and with others, make for themselves. It’s the same as being happy. No one else can make you happy, or have fun, if you’re not already happy, and/or having fun. But, a great partner can make it possible for you to have greater happiness and fun, with them, as it is for them, too. Now: I ask all of you who read this far, answer honestly: how much ‘fun’ did you have in your marriage? How much of a priority was fun and pleasure? Did you put it at a higher priority before you were married? Do you think it’s really just natural to get complacent and lazy, or that we just EXPECT to get complacent, because as Wife or Husband or Father or Mother, you’re supposed to be serious, hard-working, etc., and put such fun and pleasure behind you? I.e., you just gotta grow up, that’s life, so quit whining and be an adult?

I bow to no one in my pursuits of fun, as a balanced part of my life, both before I even met the ex, as well as since. But, the key word is *balanced*. If, as we faced, the pursuit of unbridled " fun " creates the destruction of trust in the other spouse, as my ex chose, and it is held as *more* important than the most basic support tasks ( like getting enough $$ to pay the rent, while she demands her " fun " ), then the fun becomes an impediment to a good and healthy marriage. If anything, excess fun, at the expense of all else, is what did our marriage in. That doesn’t take away from me what my personal responsibility was, and what parts of it I failed to live up to. The issue here is that few people are two dimensional cardboard … read more »

Response:

No, Andre, this wasn’t condescension, I really mean it: LIGHTEN UP!!! That was the whole point to my post — we’ve all got to lighten up (me incuded). That’s the key to successful relationships. Stop dwelling on moral rights and wrongs, and concentrate on pleasure and fun, which leads to trust and respect. It’s no fun to walk around expecting and suspecting bad out of people. In fact, it’s downright counterproductive.  

Yes, but Jen, you do have to understand that the view that you see, and that I present here, is but one facte of all of who I am. Here, we do deal and discuss those moral issues, and one effect is that others who are only reading and not writing can evaluate *all* of what they see, here, and put what they find useful to their use. I’ve recieved a bunch of e mail, over the last year, and more, expressing to me that those writers have indeed found utility in the stands that I have taken on these issues. Which is a *part* of what goes on in any such NG. There are times and places for this, and others for fun. Surely, with some of the OT stuff that I’ve written about ( and, I do try to limit that, as folks who have to pay for download time aren’t here for that ), it is clear to all that I like fun as much as the next modern human. What do you think was the *point* of my just done trip, by car, to Anaheim, CA, if not for fun, both there, and along the way ? As I’ve said, I take a back seat to the pursuit of fun, to no one. But, there is a time and a place for everthing. So, there’s no need to be so concerned about my not having enough fun. Like this coming weekend, where I’ll be in Albany, N.Y., at another con. Plus, October is looking like I might be out of town, *every* weekend, but the last, and that’s only ’cause our local con is that weekend. Anymore fun, and I might not survive it all… <g Andre, I’m sincerely sorry your ex burned you so badly. I have a hunch you enjoyed life’s pleasures and had more fun before all that. But I guess I could see how one could boomerang and adopt certain moral values as a result of such horrible treatment by a loved one. You had lots of fun, lots of pleasure with her… which led to lots of trust and respect to a level most of us could never imagine…. all to get thrown back in your face with the utmost disrespect and betrayal. You got burned. Badly.  

Yes, I did. But, one way that I’ve handled it, is to examine all of what happened, to see what the total package of responsibility in the matter was, and to learn what that means, both about her, and who she was/is, as well as who I was/are now, and what part that played in the marriage, and the various decisions leading up to it. Let me be very clear on this. It wasn’t S&M/B&D that did us in, it wasn’t an " excess " of fun, either sexual, or otherwise, it wasn’t money pressures, though they were prominent as symptoms, it wasn’t any of that. I didn’t find myself " recoiling " from all of the former life patterns, instead, I looked at each one, and revisited some of them, in order to better understand my new feelings, and thoughts. For instance, I went to a friend’s " play " party at one con in the summer of ‘97. I didn’t participate, nor had I planned to. I just wanted to see what I would think and feel, in the aftermath of the separation. I got my answer, while also seeing that that form of expression was now back to a " neutral default " setting on me ( meaning that I didn’t want to do any of it, for myself, but that I also felt no animus towards the practices, either ). I further researched some of that area, as I wanted to understand the psychology of it, and how the ex fitted into all that. Again, I learned what I need to, and the matter’s been a distant back burner item, since. Yes, I was hurt, but, either consciously or unconsciously, I *chose* to not stay hurt. I chose to study the real issues in the aftermath of my marriage, including my own responsibilities, as I didn’t want to ever repeat any of the patterns that led me to that point. And, I chose to remake me, while keeping, and enhancing the various fun loving parts of myself. Hey, ask anyone who knows me from SF conventions. My deepest wish for you is to learn to trust again. Learn it’s okay to be yourself, have fun to the depth you did before, want what you wanted before, without it backfiring so terribly. Whether my ameteur psychology is totally offbase or what, I sincerely hope the best for you, don’t ask me why!  

You know, I never stopped trusting. At all. What I did, and again, this was a matter of my *choice*, was to look at whom I was trusting, and why. Thus, I was able to see the few folks who were *not* worthy of my continuing trust… like the old pal, upon whose shoulder I let some of it out, and two months later, he and his eighteen year old roomie were sleeping with the ex… he’s now in the " I wouldn’t pee on him, if he were on fire… " list. I am fortunate in that that list is not a long one, and the continuing list, and a growing one at that, of folks in whom I can place trust, *is* a long one. So, if anything else, I am more straightforward about who I am, and the things that I do, and I make no apologies for any of that, at all. In addition to that, I now greatly reject any notions of " game playing " in the deeper parts of interpersonal relationships. I still leave room for the fun games, but for the ones that get in the way of communication, I just junk those. By *choice*. And, the newly well defined boundaries to my set of values and morals are a great aid in all that. I no longer " fear " any possible direction of any interpersonal relationship ( and, on a tangent, I am using the term " relationship " here in it’s broadest sense. I have relationships with my friends, my mom, the businesses that I do business with… ), as I always know what I want, and what I don’t. And, when I make a genuine mistake, I can see it fast, and deal with it right on the spot. So, no " fallout " coming to me from that direction, either… With that in place, I can now better give myself to " fun " with no fears of what may happen, as I always have my control over what happens to me, in my choices. Including the fun ones. This is my olive branch, if you choose to take it…

Well, I didn’t know that we were at " war ". It was all about communication to me. Which I am happy to continue with. Do olive branches need any watering ? jen

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

On the concluding pages, the author proposes her solution — here are a few nuggets to chew on — am interested in your thoughts (yes, even yours Andre! (since Andre has accused me of not being eloquent enough to get my point across effectively, I will take liberties here and type out the ‘point’ from the author’s own words.) First she raises this question: "Since staying in a marriage has become increasingly optional, why don’t we concern ourselves not with laws that make it harder to divorce but with relationships that will make the people who are unhappiest in it now — women — happier, so they will WANT to stay?" <big snip — i will add here, i think this applies to men as well — what would make men happier? Then she challenges our typical response, that we all just need a good dose of "self-improvement," i.e., we are all just spoiled rotten with bad morals, so we don’t have the moral and emotional maturity to make a marriage work (men can be included here as well, but her book addresses it from the woman’s pov): "Self-improvement is immensely seductive — God knows every inch of women has been scrutinized, criticized, and measured, altered in the name of winning more love — but it will only sabotage, not ensure, the loving marriage you want. Conventional wisdon will always insist otherwise, because its ‘wisdon’ is broadcast to you from right inside the very structure you’re challenging. Step outside that framework. Better yet, don’t even go in. You can have marriage without following such pleasure-negating rules. "You are not a moral project, made even better by more and more giving, less and less wanting. The betterment of YOU, morally, only reinforces the single standard that declares men uncontrollable and unalterable and you endlessly flexible, responsive and accommodating. This is teh very bargain that has left you in marriage shock, feeling all alone and wondering why you’re trying so hard while the Witness [her name for what I've been terming here "the voice of the Wife"], breathing down your neck, urges you to try harder still. "Isn’t it interestng that the culture still turns its eye accusingly, beseechingly, toward women to save the social order — by fixing and changing not it but HER [I might add, you could say HIM here, too, with different but similar effect] Then finally, she proposes her antidote (which took too long in coming, and then was only skimmed over, quite unfortunately IMO): She starts by explaining this survey they did at New Women magazine, polling women of every age on the primary purpose of marriage. (and no, Igor, it’s not a very scientifically valid poll, but interesting nonetheless — can’t prove, but provokes thought).  Survey choices were: to raise a family, to foster spiritual growth, to build character, to be financially stable, to have fun. "The results; of five thousand women, those who chose ‘having fun’ as the primary purpose of marriage were most likely to call their marriages ‘great’. "They enjoy the best sex, get the most respect and attention from their husbands, think the least about divorcing, and would marry the same men all over again. In short, by all measures available, they have the most fun! "Yet, despite the clear and direct connection between valuing fun in marriage and having it, and the deeper and more global marital contentment claimed by those who chose it, a distinct minority of readers actually marked the ‘fun’ option. "The readers’ inclination to trivialize fun becomes not baffling but sad, a powerful reminder of where pleasure fits into our heirarchy of values. Many of us still feel we betray our frivolity, our immaturity, to say outright, ‘what i want most is to have a fun, sexy thing going with my partner.’ yet the evidence is that this is the surest way to deep committment, profound trust, and close, spiritual bond we also want in marriage. Words like honor and duty, forever and compromise, phrases like settling down and taking responsibility– our good conduct– have a way of adding such weight to what started as an easy, fluid, breathing relationship that by the time family and children get thrown in, we begin to believe that pleasure is "selfish." Which is too bad. Because it isn’t. fun is sexy. It’s life-affirming. It’s subversive. It’s possibly what made you a couple in the first place. "What’s more, it turns out that pleasure, rather than being something you can have for dessert once a month after loftier, worthier goals are met, seems instead to be the shortest route to these goals. Fun turns into trust; fun creates respect; fun produces a spiritual bond; fun generates intimacy. Seen this way, as a vital catalyst rather than an optional frill, fun– pleasure in relationships, is hardly trivial. " Now: I ask all of you who read this far, answer honestly: how much ‘fun’ did you have in your marriage? How much of a priority was fun and pleasure? Did you put it at a higher priority before you were married? Do you think it’s really just natural to get complacent and lazy, or that we just EXPECT to get complacent, because as Wife or Husband or Father or Mother, you’re supposed to be serious, hard-working, etc., and put such fun and pleasure behind you? I.e., you just gotta grow up, that’s life, so quit whining and be an adult? jen

Response: