Question:
You sound normal to me!!!! >i fear approaching people for several reasons. different doctors have >told me that it is obvious i am mentally ill, just upon meeting and >talking to me a little while.
You probally just need to look more together or something. I don’t know about your situation, but why don’t you start going to a church of your choice? Church is a pressure free way of meeting people. so i am self-conscious about that. also, >if i do have occasion to talk to some stranger, i will intuitively know >what they expect me to be like (like them) and be that way as long as i >can manage it, so ‘myself’ never comes out. but it is a real strain to >pretend even for a little while to care about the normal stuff. mostly >i just listen and agree, even if i don’t.
Who doesn’t do this? Prentending to care is part of normal conversation. but here is another sat. >night, i am alone in my apt. and really sad. so many sat. nights have >passed this way, nothing to do tomorrow either. wish sometimes i lived >in halfway place with people around.
Well, I wish you the best of luck. Appelyne
Response:
Dan, I am over 30 and male and everything you are saying is completely true. Experience in the world will teach you this after many years. Unfortunately, I am still learning these lessons and will most likely be duped into feeling miserable in some other area of life besides loneliness. Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dan Coyote wrote: > I am assuming you are under 30 and male? Is that correct? > If you are inexperienced in life, I think it essential that you persist and > gain quantities of information to help you understand this cock-eyed > existence. I simply suggest that you don’t take it or yourself too > seriously. > I have been at a disadvantage when it came to appreciating these feelings of > loneliness. > Except for a brief period in my late teens/early-20s, I have never felt > lonely proper. > Since then I have discovered, for me personally, that a lot of these > feelings are a result of societal brainwashing. We are EXPECTED to feel a > certain way to fulfill family/cultural/societal expectations. > Society is culpable for a great deal of misery that someone who does not > conform to it’s template seemingly must endure. > In essence, consider your alternatives and try not to be governed by other > people’s expectations. > Dan… > ln…@webtv.net wrote in message > <23937-37882886…@newsd-261.iap.bryant.webtv.net>… > I fear approaching people for several reasons. different doctors have > told me that it is obvious i am mentally ill, just upon meeting and > talking to me a little while. so i am self-conscious about that. also, > if i do have occasion to talk to some stranger, i will intuitively know > what they expect me to be like (like them) and be that way as long as i > can manage it, so ‘myself’ never comes out. but it is a real strain to > pretend even for a little while to care about the normal stuff. mostly > i just listen and agree, even if i don’t. but here is another sat. > night, i am alone in my apt. and really sad. so many sat. nights have > passed this way, nothing to do tomorrow either. wish sometimes i lived > in halfway place with people around.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Spiritus wrote in message … >In article <TFnj3.97$qB5.15…@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Dan Coyote" ><D…@smarta.com> wrote: >> No idea, sorry… >> Which reminds me of a joke… >> Q: What do you call a deer without any eyes? >> A: No i-dea. 
>> Take care… >> Dan… >Isn’t that "No i-dear"?
Pedant ;) <wink> >this reminds me of a joke about avoiding alien "eye contact" >"if there are ‘no’ eyes, avoid ‘all contact’. >sp
Aren’t Canadians considered aliens in Yankland? Saw the south park movie the other day…I wasn’t aware till then that the canucks are considered potty mouths by the merikans Take care, Dan…from Pottyville
Response:
> I don’t personally have what anyone would consider a real life & I never
Walt…"don’t torture yourself…that is my job" (From the Adam’s Family Movie) Walt, my friend (and I do consider you as such). The attitude you are adopting is precisely that which I am combating. Your perspective seems to be that of accepting the formula of success which our good pillars of society are trying to ram down our throats. I refuse to accept THEIR definitions of success or of a successful and fulfilling lifestyle. In a hundred years who is gunna give a dan? )) Sex is over rated! Intelligence is over rated! Gregariousness is over rated! Conformity is over rated! Career success is over rated! This life system is over rated! Walt, call me an egoist, but I MAKE my own meaning and worthwhileness and bugger those bastards who try to drag down the individualist/eccentric/nonconformist. Show me where it is written all meaning is in the stars, someone else has all the answers that are right for all men/women? If I have learnt one thing in my 84 years on this mortal coil, it is that no one path is right for all "men". My apologies for stating the obvious. >have, but for some reason it doesn’t bother me much now. I talk to online >friends by computer a lot. I tinker with computers. > Walt
Well…er…you could have said that in the beginning <cough>…:) Dan…full of it!…and proud of it!
Response:
Hi Indy (Shouldn’t that be "Iny53" now? Boy did I have a wrong number!…but at least it allowed for a good rant! >ln…@webtv.net wrote in message
<27251-37895216…@newsd-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net>… >hi dan c., well i am not under 30 and male! i am a 53 year old woman >with 3 grown children. i have had my share of life experience as well,
Then use it to your advantage, my dear woman! <hug> >but the past 2 years have been full of losses and changes, plus the
The greater the losses, the easier it is for me to look at life in the eyes and snarl back! Compared to what society considers a meaning full existence, my life is 2 blocks from skid row. Do I give a dan?…give you one guess Indy, I am not a slave to someone else’s man made definitions of purposefulness I find it a little fishy This ultimate meaning stuff they preach only creates misery while the body is still warm, IMO. Life is too short for this sort of bull dust. >disadvantage of middle age and worsening of symptoms. i have lost much
Ill health is definitely unfortunate, and my sincere sympathies if this is the case for you…but as to the "disadvantages of middle aged"??? I have never been sanely happier with myself and my understanding of this cock-eyed life system. For me life truly did start at 40, and has only gotten better. I find that now, with life experiences behind me, I can enjoy a freedom I only dreamt about as a young man. Life is not the confused soup that it once was, and I find my tenaciousness in maintaining my lifestyle profoundly satisfying. And to those that have the mistaken belief that no-one could live such a lifestyle and be very comfortable, I say PFFFFFTTTTT! :)!!! >of the optimism i used to have, the feeling that there is still time for
Optimism is over rated! )) I much prefer to see the world as it is. There is a personal comfort in recognising the minisculeness of the individual in the face of eternity. That may not work for everyone…indeed it obviously doesn’t, so I suggest that those who find this confronting not venture in this rather eccentric landscape. >a better outcome that goes with youth and beauty. sense of hopelessness
I have always been a rather ugly individual…but it has over the long haul given me strength that I would never have had otherwise. I gather you were rather physically attractive as only those who have youth can truly be. Surely you are in a much better position to handle being less than an Aphrodite than a 17 year old who has suddenly discovered that "love was meant for beauty queens"? (Janis Ian?) >prevails, and the reality that no-one has any need or use for me now.
I am a social leper, a curiosity, an annoyance to society, but that hardly worries me in the least. Those that prefer I were dead will have to wait a little longer <chuckle> I have no desire to fulfil their wishes and intend to enjoy the remaining days to the fullest. I give MYSELF meaning and do not depend on anyone else for a sense of selfworth. I personally find this scrabbling towards a dignity respected by my peers rather childish and in itself lacking in dignity. I am not an image. My worth is not a result of an image. I think it sad if it were. Yes, I am aware that I am a rather thorny individual with a somewhat twisted and toxic outlook on life, but please bear in mind that I have no intention of inflicting emotional discomfit. Take care…and welcome to the group…they are mostly a caring lot who are happy to give support. Dan Coyote…eccentric extraordinaire…
Response:
<chuckle>… I am a little surprised and amused after reading the "tone" of my (this) post. I suspect quite strongly that my new medication is doing interesting things to me. The post is extremely "me" oriented, more so than usual, I think. <chuckle> Please bear in mind the the effects of the new drug…and that it will probably take a little while to acclimatize. Dan…drugged out of his mind! PS…I had a chat to my shrink and he/she has put me on Risperdal which I am told does not have the dangers of progressive TD that stelazine (and some others) has. It is a more modern drug which sounds to be far less feral to the body and mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dan Coyote wrote in message … >Hi Indy (Shouldn’t that be "Iny53" now? >Boy did I have a wrong number!…but at least it allowed for a good rant! >>ln…@webtv.net wrote in message ><27251-37895216…@newsd-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net>… >>hi dan c., well i am not under 30 and male! i am a 53 year old woman >>with 3 grown children. i have had my share of life experience as well, >Then use it to your advantage, my dear woman! <hug> >>but the past 2 years have been full of losses and changes, plus the >The greater the losses, the easier it is for me to look at life in the eyes >and snarl back! >Compared to what society considers a meaning full existence, my life is 2 >blocks from skid row. >Do I give a dan?…give you one guess >Indy, I am not a slave to someone else’s man made definitions of >purposefulness >I find it a little fishy >This ultimate meaning stuff they preach only creates misery while the body >is still warm, IMO. Life is too short for this sort of bull dust. >>disadvantage of middle age and worsening of symptoms. i have lost much >Ill health is definitely unfortunate, and my sincere sympathies if this is >the case for you…but as to the "disadvantages of middle aged"??? I have >never been sanely happier with myself and my understanding of this cock-eyed >life system. >For me life truly did start at 40, and has only gotten better. I find that >now, with life experiences behind me, I can enjoy a freedom I only dreamt >about as a young man. Life is not the confused soup that it once was, and I >find my tenaciousness in maintaining my lifestyle profoundly satisfying. >And to those that have the mistaken belief that no-one could live such a >lifestyle and be very comfortable, I say PFFFFFTTTTT! :)!!! >>of the optimism i used to have, the feeling that there is still time for >Optimism is over rated! )) >I much prefer to see the world as it is. There is a personal comfort in >recognising the minisculeness of the individual in the face of eternity. >That may not work for everyone…indeed it obviously doesn’t, so I suggest >that those who find this confronting not venture in this rather eccentric >landscape. >>a better outcome that goes with youth and beauty. sense of hopelessness >I have always been a rather ugly individual…but it has over the long haul >given me strength that I would never have had otherwise. I gather you were >rather physically attractive as only those who have youth can truly be. >Surely you are in a much better position to handle being less than an >Aphrodite than a 17 year old who has suddenly discovered that "love was >meant for beauty queens"? (Janis Ian?) >>prevails, and the reality that no-one has any need or use for me now. >I am a social leper, a curiosity, an annoyance to society, but that hardly >worries me in the least. Those that prefer I were dead will have to wait a >little longer <chuckle> I have no desire to fulfil their wishes and intend >to enjoy the remaining days to the fullest. >I give MYSELF meaning and do not depend on anyone else for a sense of >selfworth. I personally find this scrabbling towards a dignity respected by >my peers rather childish and in itself lacking in dignity. >I am not an image. My worth is not a result of an image. I think it sad if >it were. >Yes, I am aware that I am a rather thorny individual with a somewhat twisted >and toxic outlook on life, but please bear in mind that I have no intention >of inflicting emotional discomfit. >Take care…and welcome to the group…they are mostly a caring lot who are >happy to give support. >Dan Coyote…eccentric extraordinaire…
Response:
TD = Tardive Dyskinesia Do a web search. There is a lot on the subject. amayes wrote in message <7mg2hf$75…@apple.news.easynet.net>… >What’s progressive TD ? I was on sulpiride – does that give TD ?
No idea, sorry… Which reminds me of a joke… Q: What do you call a deer without any eyes? A: No i-dea. Take care… Dan…
Response:
On the fateful day of 18 Jul 1999 21:15:08 -0400, anon-25…@anon.twwells.com (Sandie) virtually scribeth into alt.support.schizophrenia: <snip> >> For >> ontologically insecure people however the themes of existence are special >> kinds of ‘existential anxiety’, or dread. Every interpersonal relationship >> threatens insecure individuals with loss of identity (i.e we are playing a >> part that is not us but we feel we have to do it to appear "normal" and to >> be accepted by the other individual. Perhaps this is why some of us are so >> bad at functioning in groups of people since we are trying to act for >> everyone.) >I focus much energy on the person I am speaking with or listening to. Speaking >with two or more people at a time confuses me, because when I try to tune in to >all of them at one time, the vibes get chaotic. If I focus on just one in the >group so that I can think, it seems rude to the others there. Mostly I avoid >groups. This group is a little different, but still at times can be freaky. >Usually in a nice way.:-) Many here go into isolation occasionally.
That’s interesting . . . I’m a "normal," not schizophrenic, but I’ve noticed a little similarity there . . . I deal somewhat better with one person than with many, unless I’m up in front talking and they’re listening, or I’m one of an audience. I tend to be quieter in a large group than I am with just one or two other people. It just doesn’t seem to be so much of an equal, balanced exchange. >I told someone about my problem of focusing in groups, and she said that means >I am not the same person with everyone, and therefore fake/not real. Her >statement made me feel very inadequate and ashamed. I told a shrink about this, >and he said it was not being fake, so that helped me somewhat. Each >relationship is as unique as the individuals, so why wouldn’t the individuals >be somehow changed within it?
This really rings true . . . I totally tend to adapt my conversation style to the people I’m talking to, to the point of having a different "face" on myself . . . different names in different newsgroups and so on. It seems, to me, that it’s really a matter of situational relevance at heart. When you are a Star Wars fan, and so is the person you are talking to, that is what you have in common, and the conversation tends to be about Star Wars . . . which brings up the feelings and thoughts — chunks of yourself — that you associate with Star Wars. Lisa Ann — Everything Grrl — S*t*a*r*7*c*y*b*o*r*g*i*r…@lycosmail.com (Keep an asterisk-blind viewpoint.) "Usenet is the place where people beat the memories of grease-spots left by dead horses." –Tetsab
Response:
Chris, Thank you for your kind support. Sometimes I wonder if my personal experiences have dissociated me from most other individuals of this mortal coil. Dan… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chris wrote in message <3788BC8D.4F299…@worldnet.att.net>… >Dan, >I am over 30 and male and everything you are saying is completely true. >Experience in the world will teach you this after many years. Unfortunately, I >am still learning these lessons and will most likely be duped into feeling >miserable in some other area of life besides loneliness. >Chris
Response:
hi dan c., well i am not under 30 and male! i am a 53 year old woman with 3 grown children. i have had my share of life experience as well, but the past 2 years have been full of losses and changes, plus the disadvantage of middle age and worsening of symptoms. i have lost much of the optimism i used to have, the feeling that there is still time for a better outcome that goes with youth and beauty. sense of hopelessness prevails, and the reality that no-one has any need or use for me now. lny
Response:
I don’t know that I can say anything to help, but I do admire you since in raising a family you have done better in life than me. Have you considered trying to involve yourself in charity work or in church work? Are there activities that you would like to do for yourself because they interest you? I know a woman who right now in extremely active in researching her genealogy. She is back 200 years or something. I don’t personally have what anyone would consider a real life & I never have, but for some reason it doesn’t bother me much now. I talk to online friends by computer a lot. I tinker with computers. Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In <27251-37895216…@newsd-263.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, ln…@webtv.net writes: >hi dan c., well i am not under 30 and male! i am a 53 year old woman >with 3 grown children. i have had my share of life experience as well, >but the past 2 years have been full of losses and changes, plus the >disadvantage of middle age and worsening of symptoms. i have lost much >of the optimism i used to have, the feeling that there is still time for >a better outcome that goes with youth and beauty. sense of hopelessness >prevails, and the reality that no-one has any need or use for me now. >lny
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dan Coyote wrote: > > I don’t personally have what anyone would consider a real life & I never > Walt…"don’t torture yourself…that is my job" (From the Adam’s Family > Movie) > Walt, my friend (and I do consider you as such). The attitude you are > adopting is precisely that which I am combating. Your perspective seems to > be that of accepting the formula of success which our good pillars of > society are trying to ram down our throats. > I refuse to accept THEIR definitions of success or of a successful and > fulfilling lifestyle. > In a hundred years who is gunna give a dan? )) > Sex is over rated! > Intelligence is over rated! > Gregariousness is over rated! > Conformity is over rated! > Career success is over rated! > This life system is over rated! > Walt, call me an egoist, but I MAKE my own meaning and worthwhileness and > bugger those bastards who try to drag down the > individualist/eccentric/nonconformist. > Show me where it is written all meaning is in the stars, someone else has > all the answers that are right for all men/women? > If I have learnt one thing in my 84 years on this mortal coil, it is that no > one path is right for all "men". > My apologies for stating the obvious.
If you are able to control your emotional responses to life merely by making some abstract intellectual decision that you disagree with the views of society at large about life, than I certainly admire that ability. I am a phobic & I have always found my emotional responses to go on in the same senseless way regardless of any intellectual views I might hold about the matter. Walt — Whom the Gods destroy, they first make mad. Euripides
Response:
i fear approaching people for several reasons. different doctors have told me that it is obvious i am mentally ill, just upon meeting and talking to me a little while. so i am self-conscious about that. also, if i do have occasion to talk to some stranger, i will intuitively know what they expect me to be like (like them) and be that way as long as i can manage it, so ‘myself’ never comes out. but it is a real strain to pretend even for a little while to care about the normal stuff. mostly i just listen and agree, even if i don’t. but here is another sat. night, i am alone in my apt. and really sad. so many sat. nights have passed this way, nothing to do tomorrow either. wish sometimes i lived in halfway place with people around.
Response:
I am assuming you are under 30 and male? Is that correct? If you are inexperienced in life, I think it essential that you persist and gain quantities of information to help you understand this cock-eyed existence. I simply suggest that you don’t take it or yourself too seriously. I have been at a disadvantage when it came to appreciating these feelings of loneliness. Except for a brief period in my late teens/early-20s, I have never felt lonely proper. Since then I have discovered, for me personally, that a lot of these feelings are a result of societal brainwashing. We are EXPECTED to feel a certain way to fulfill family/cultural/societal expectations. Society is culpable for a great deal of misery that someone who does not conform to it’s template seemingly must endure. In essence, consider your alternatives and try not to be governed by other people’s expectations. Dan… ln…@webtv.net wrote in message
<23937-37882886…@newsd-261.iap.bryant.webtv.net>… I fear approaching people for several reasons. different doctors have told me that it is obvious i am mentally ill, just upon meeting and talking to me a little while. so i am self-conscious about that. also, if i do have occasion to talk to some stranger, i will intuitively know what they expect me to be like (like them) and be that way as long as i can manage it, so ‘myself’ never comes out. but it is a real strain to pretend even for a little while to care about the normal stuff. mostly i just listen and agree, even if i don’t. but here is another sat. night, i am alone in my apt. and really sad. so many sat. nights have passed this way, nothing to do tomorrow either. wish sometimes i lived in halfway place with people around.
Response:
Question:
(clipped) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If God is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent (certainly, God is all of this), then He knows what will happen in what we consider to be the future. If this is indeed so, didn’t God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Why didn’t He stop them? Why didn’t He show up and plead with them? "Adam, Eve, don’t listen to that serpent!" Why did He allow the serpent in the garden anyway? We do not know the mind of God. Let’s not take too many liberties in assuming that we do. Man has indeed brought pain and sorrow on himself. But it is God’s law. If God had no thoughts of punishment, he would not have established that kind of law in the first place. In Christ, DLRM (Kerusso)
Those saved in and by the Living God, do know the mind of God for in this, God reveals Himself. As for hell; it is the opposite of dwelling in and on the true matters of God. Hell is not a physical place, but a dwelling place of the mind; the spirit; inspired substance and matters which the mind dwells in and on. God does not banish people to hell. Nor does God punish people by sending them to hell. God saves man from hell in and by his Word of Truth. Those who dwell in and on the deep matters of God revealed in His Word and Truth, dwell in "Jerusalem" which is a spiritual dwelling place of the mind and spirit. The opposite is hell or "Babylon." Man chooses for himself, the word he believes; the principles he follows which structure his life. Man may choose the life God offers to teach and give him, or the life fallen man teaches and gives him. Such is life and death concerning the Holy Spirit of God given to man; those who will receive from God. If man knew God; if man knew the life lived in and by the greater principles of God; he would choose this life over the life man lives and teaches, for he would see and understand the better life God gives in His Word and teachings. Because spiritual life is eternal, man chooses his eternal life. Either with God and those of God or not with God; with those not choosing the life God gives in His ways and principles. God does not punish man but allows man to exercise his free will to choose for himself. Again, the parable of Lazaras and the rich man reveals the principle. The rich man was in hell, but when knowing this reality, desired his brothers hear the Truth concerning this matter before it was too late for them. Salvation therefore is now for life in the physical is the time for the choosing; the time for the works and creation of God in man in mind and spirit, preparing man for the ongoing life with Him and with others of the "family" of God. Jesus of Nazareth did not teach religious doctrine nor did he teach his disciples to seek Truth in religions. He declared the Living God and the works of the Livng God as existing reality, which mankind may see and know. Jesus taught man to seek the Living God; ask of the Living God; the fulfillment of His promise which is to teach mankind His Word and Truth Himself. In and by this way only is man able to know and understand the matters of God, including the matter of hell. Without this sure knowledge, man speculates; forms beliefs and opinions; which become doctrines and teachings. Yet this is not Truth of nor from God. The way to know the Truth was taught by Jesus of Nazareth. One who followed this way had this to say; 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Having been anointed by the Living God, in and by which John learned the Truth from the Living God, John reminds others of this true way of gaining sure knowledge and understanding of the matters of God. John followed the way taught by Jesus of Nazareth; a way not followed in this day and hour. Man has indeed fallen away from knowledge and understanding of this reality John spoke of. It behoves each of mankind to seek and gain sure knowledge of the truth concerning these matters of eternal life and hell. Man cannot choose wisely unless he knows the truth of these matters. DW Suiter
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question of importance is why does mankind continue in his way instead of seeking salvation of and by the Living God? Because mankind has fallen away from the way; the true way; and follows false religious doctrine. Religion is part of the social order created by fallen mankind. Hence, "punishment" for violation of their law. DW Suiter I have also some questions: what is for you "the true way"? What would salvation, you are speaking about, consists of? How shall we discern false religious doctrine from the true one? I assume that you believe in God, don’t you? Another question: what is your attitude towards someone who threats you with torture or had badly abused someone you love? What is your attitude towards those who afflict unnecessary pain, and enjoy in doing so, towards other people? Or towards someone who are insensitive for other people’s needs but only pursue their own desires. Or towards someone who treats other person as a mere thing? Alex
True salvation is transformation by the works of the Living God. It is the reality I speak of, not empty words of religious doctrine. In and by this way all things are proved to be true. Religion asks man to merely believe as they, the leaders and followers, so do, which is not sure knowledge of Truth. Religion is a creation of man; a substitute for the living way and the Living God. As religion was when Jesus of Nazareth began to speak and teach, so it is now, including "Christianity." As man could not conceive the reality of the works of the Living God then, he cannot in this day. Mankind who followed the way taught by Jesus of Nazareth were transformed in mind and spirit into the Creation and Son of God. The true followers of Jesus of Nazareth received the fulfillment of the promise of God which is the salvation of and by the Living God. The Living God is able to cause mankind to know Truth in great depths of knowledge and understanding. The fear you relay is taught by religion, which is an attempt to keep man from seeking the Living God; an attempt to keep man in bondage to religious doctrines and beliefs. Simple words such as those attributed to the apostle John, concerning the anointing in and by which Truth comes from the Living God, are not associated with reality, but are watered down by religious doctrine which gives another understanding to this word. So also the declaration of Jesus of Nazareth concerning the way to know Truth. Religion does not associate these words and teachings with reality for the reality they have never seen nor known. Religion creates the mind such as Nicodemus had when hearing Jesus; a carnal mind; not knowing nor understanding the way of spirit. The types and kinds of persons you ask of exist because of lack of knowledge and understanding of God; of life. If these knew for sure the reality of eternal life in the life they have created for themselves, they would be as the rich man in hell who asked his brothers be told of the reality he knew nothing of while living in the physical world. Law of man; trial and punishment; is a dangerous thing as is seen in the many who set theirselves up as judge, jury, and executioner. Such are the heads of religion and governments who are responsible for the murders of millions and millions of people. Without the mind and spirit from God, man cannot be righteous in his judgment. Righteousness was expressed in and by the person of Jesus of Nazareth who did not offer law as the solution to man’s problems, but taught of the Kingdom of God, in and by which man may rule his thoughts and his mind, therefore his life. Man has fallen so far away from God, he cannot perceive a life of peace, love, and joy, nor is he able to conceive a Living God who is able to establish this with mankind. Man does not believe this is possible by not believeing the word and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, for if any believe his word, they shall seek; find; enter into; the way he taught, in and by which they ask and receive from the Father and Living God, the fulfillment of the promise of God which alone is salvation of and by the Living God. As was taught, man cannot infuse the Word of God into the mind which already exists within him. The old mind and the teachings, beliefs, and principles, must be destroyed and removed. A new mind must be created and established in man; a mind created in and by every Word which comes from the Living God, in and by which the great principles of God are taught by God; learned by man. In and by this, each is anointed by the Living God. In and by this, man gains sure knowledge of the Truth from God. In and by this, man receives the mind and spirit of Christ, being transformed into this person of this mind and spirit. In and by this, the evil mind and spirit in man is removed; taken out of the way; so Christ comes and returns to mankind. Such is the understanding of the "mystery" of Christ in you. The matters of God are "mysterious" only to those not obeying God and coming to receive from Him, knowledge and understanding which reveals all things. Man cannot solve his social ills. This is historically evident. The seed man sows in the minds of others, brings forth what is seen in this day and hour. The seed is his word and teachings. In and by this way man recreates his mind in his young. In addition, man uses the "media" to fill the minds of the young with principles of murder, hatred, and atrocious behaviour and acts. Mankind raises up his children as children of hell; of evil; in and by the substance he places in the minds of his young. The children merely act on what they have been taught, each generation becoming more evil that the preceeding. In and by this, man shall destroy himself unless the Living God shortens these days and brings an end to the rule and control of man over man. For this reason, the true prophets foretold; as did Jesus of Nazareth; a day and a time when the Living God does His works of promise as was foretold by John who conveyed the revelation given him. The impending "judgment" of God is not seen nor understood in Truth by the rulers and leaders of religion. In and by man being raised up to sit on the "judgment seat of Christ" man is able to judge by the mind of Christ, matters of life. Paul spoke of reality when speaking of the mind of Christ saying; "Let this mind be in you which is in Christ." Mankind cannot create this mind in himself nor others of man. Only the Living God is creator of His Creation; the "man" He has created in mind and spirit, in His likeness. Because man has been without God for a long period, he has been led to believe the Living God does nothing. Mankind has turned to religion, being swallowed up by religions and their false teachings; "Wormwood." Correction comes from the Living God in and by the way He has established; a way lost and forgotten by mankind. This way; the "High" way; shall be restored as promised, in knowledge and understanding, in the minds of mankind. The Creation of God; the mind and spirit in man which began with Adam; shall be resurrected in mankind as the evil mind Adam handed down shall be destroyed by the Living God. These are the promises of God who cannot lie; who is able to bring to be, that which He has declared shall be. The error of man is to look for the return of Christ in the physical. Man sees and judges by a carnal mind, not knowing nor understanding spiritual matters. As the Son of God came into the man Jesus of Nazareth in and by the Living Word from the Living God; as the Son of God came into the true followers of this way; the apostles; so also in this day, the Christ and Son of God returns to mankind, in and by this very same way. Man rejected the Son and Christ because of their carnal mind which judged this man to be as they were, not knowing the mind and spirit in this man, from where it came and who this man was. In this day, man awaits a "saviour" as those did when Jesus began to reveal himself. In error, man does not see nor understand, the way of salvation was given to man by this man Jesus of Nazareth. Man does not believe the word and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth apply to and portray reality. Yet those who did believe his word; those who did enter into and follow his teachings of the way; these received in his word and teachings the power to become the Son of God as Jesus became the Son of God. These learned of the Holy Spirit which Jesus received from the Father, the Holy Spirit being the new spirit created in man by the Living God in and by His Living Word which He writes and engraves in the inner parts of man; in his mind. In and by this, the Holy Spirit is inspired in the mind of man; built up in the mind of man. In and by this, the Christ and Son of God is raised up in mankind. Such is the promise of the Living God as set forth in the new covenat of God with mankind, as was delivered in the word and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. A great principle of God was used by Jesus of Nazareth. It is the principle of "proving." He declared that if any followed the way he taught they would receive the fulfilling of the promise of God. When the true followers did follow this way, they did receive the fulfilling of the promise as they have testified. The rulers and leaders of religions have promulgated a lie, declaring the apostles received something from God none other may receive, when in truth, these merely received the fulfilling of the promise of God which is to all mankind. These followed the way taught by Jesus of Nazareth; declared by him to be salvation by the Living God. There is but one way of salvation established by the Living God. Man must come into sonship with the Father and Living God, in and by the way the disciples of Jesus came into sonship with Him. This Son is made clean by the Father who … read more »
Response:
Consider the following passage of scripture from 2 Timothy 3:14 – "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." The thought of God "punishing" came from the minds of man and indeed is conveyed in the "old testament" which was religious law. The true nature of God was revealed by Jesus of Nazareth who revealed the true spiritual law of God.
Here and in subsequent writings, you suggest that the Old Testament is not true Scripture. You suggest that the only reliable portion of the Bible is the NT. However, we must remember that allusions to the reliability and veracity of Scripture are found in the New Testament. They are found there at a time before teh NT was even canonized. Seeing that, to what Scripture are these writers referring? Is Paul, in the above cited passage, referring to NT scripture? Not really. In fact, he is referring to the whole of God’s revelation to man. Old and New Testaments – they are both "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness…" Understanding the nature of God reveals the wisdom of God. There is no good which comes from punishing. Good comes from changing and correcting. If man violates the law of gravity and becomes injured, is this punishment of God? No. It is the consequence of violating a law. So also violation of spiritual law brings consequences. Obedience to spiritual law brings consequences.
Apart from beliefs on the nature of Hell, just tell me what you think Hell is anyway? Is it some place that exists apart from God? Is it something that God wishes would go away but can do nothing about? Tell me, what could possibly exist if God did not allow it? Hell exists because God put it there. Hell is that special place (not necessarily spatial) God has reserved to exact ultimate punishment–the wrath of God. Reflecting upon common cartoon images, many get the idea that Hell is the place that the Devil runs. They portray that hell is the Devil’s little playground where he tortures shipwrecked souls. But no. Hell is where God exacts ultimate vengeance and punishment–first on Satan and his minions, and then on those that choose to follow them there. It’s a scary thought, but God runs Hell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Superstition and old wives tales played a big part in the religious beliefs of man who created the old testament. It is lack of knowledge which causes man to create his beliefs concerning God. Rather than using fear to guide man, love is used by God. The word chastise is used properly for instruction or teaching which is effective only when seen and understood as matter of principle. Before punishment must come trial, judgment, and condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. The principle is this. Mankind is as children who err. A child is not punished, but corrected when erring, with love. It is the will of God that none perish but come into the knowledge of Truth. It is the will of God that man live life in peace, love, and joy. The parable of the prodigal son reveals the mind and will of God towards the errant son. It is amusing that insurance policies declare destructive forces of nature to be "an act of God" as if God is "punishing" man without regard to the innocent and righteous. The teaching of a punishing God comes with the old hellfire and damnation preachings of the unenlightened and parents who teach children "God will get you" when they err. The "sins" or erroneous beliefs and thoughts of man, cause man to bring on himself the consequences of his acts. When these become part of the social order man has structeured for himself, these "sins" are carried on by following generations; children of the fathers. For example, the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights were established in principle for the structuring of a social order. The intent conveyed was that man has a "right" to be free from unjust law imposed on him by others of mankind. This "spirit" of the law has been replaced by the minds of those who sit in power and declare "what" the word of the law intends. In and by this, the freedom intended by the founding fathers has been taken away, to be replaced by oppressive laws. Is this punishment of God? Do the hungry and homeless exist because God is punishing these? Do the many sick and ill exist because God is punishing these? No, these are the consequences of the acts of man.
My statement that God does indeed punish does not imply that the destitute of the world are necessarily recipients of punishment. It is extraordinarily temporal-minded to think that the only part of life worth living for is the here and now. Certainly not, we–Christians–are supposed to be living for the hereafter, for Heaven. If I am poor, destitute and abused due to a situation I was born in, it is not punishment of me by God. It is a result of sin in the world (hopefully you agree on this point). However, if I die and go to Hell because I did not accept Christ, then certainly punishment is my due. If I accept Christ before I die, I can expect to be chastised for my sin–chastisement does not technically qualify as punishment (even if it feels like it . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The laws of God are just and equitable. The consequence of obedience to these laws is a life of peace, love, and joy. This life is seldom seen in the social order of man because man does not incorporate the laws of God into his social order. The founding fathers set forth in law, declaration of freedom; declaration of certain inalienable rights given man by God. In agreement with this document is the Declaration of Independence, which declares man has a right to assume a station provided by Nature and the God of Nature. This "station" is a life which man may live, in and by the law and principles of God, unhindered and unrestricted by others of mankind. The foundational law and principle on which all law of God is established is love. If man had followed the ways of God; the principles of God; rather than the principles not of God as is now; life would be a consequence of obedience to the principles of God; the life God gives man to live. What man experiences as life in the social order established by others for him; the "government;" is the consequence of following principles not of God. Man "punishes" himself, or allows others of man to punish him, becoming the downtrodden; the oppressed. The offer of God is to set man free; to save man from the life man has created for himself. If man rejects the offer of God, God does not punish man, but lets him go his own way. Yet as He told Abraham of the two ways he may go, and the consequences of each way, so also the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth revealed to man these same ways.
We Christians like to say that we are "saved". However, I must beg the question, "What are we saved from?" Many would reply, "our sins, what else?" So I must beg the question again, "What does it mean to be saved from your sins?" Your sins aren’t attacking you. Your sins are what you do in rebellion against God (sins are your attack against your Creator). You don’t need to be saved from your sins, per se. You need to be saved from the consequences of your sins which you so richly deserve. And what are the consequences of sin? God told Adam that if He ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would "surely die." Die of what? Die of a punishment for the sin that God would dispense. We should agree here: If you are a Christian, if you are saved at all, you are saved by God. Do we agree here: And if you are a Christian, if you are saved at all, you are saved from God–God’s wrath. We need salvation from the punishment that is coming. – God saved Noah by ordering him to build an Ark. That Ark saved Noah, his family and the animals from the flood punishment that God sent. – God saved Lot and his family (except Lot’s wife) by informing him of the coming fire and brimstone shower that God Himself sent. – God saved the Israelites by ordering them to put the lamb’s blood on their door frames. That blood saved the Israelites from the angel of death punishment that God sent. – God saves us by having sent His Son to receive the totality of punishment we each deserve. He affects this salvation by gracing us with the faith necessary to trust & believe in Christ’s finished work on the Cross. If man rejects the offer of salvation from the life fellow man has structured for him to live, this man continues on in his beliefs and opinions when passing on, experiencing the consequences of his thoughts, beliefs and opinions. For many, this is the reality of a living hell, as is seen in many in this day and hour, as life is lived day by day here and now. The torment of the mind does not cease when passing on. The pain and sorrow of the mind continues. This, man has brought on himself. God has warned and taught man Truth concerning these matters. DW Suiter
If God is omniscient and omnipresent and omnipotent (certainly, God is all of this), then He knows what will happen in what we consider to be the future. If this is indeed so, didn’t God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Why didn’t He stop them? Why didn’t He show up and plead with them? "Adam, Eve, don’t listen to that serpent!" Why did He allow the serpent in the garden anyway? We do not know the mind of God. Let’s not take too many liberties in assuming that we do. Man has indeed brought pain and sorrow on himself. But it is … read more »
Response:
The question of importance is why does mankind continue in his way instead of seeking salvation of and by the Living God? Because mankind has fallen away from the way; the true way; and follows false religious doctrine. Religion is part of the social order created by fallen mankind. Hence, "punishment" for violation of their law. DW Suiter
I have also some questions: what is for you "the true way"? What would salvation, you are speaking about, consists of? How shall we discern false religious doctrine from the true one? I assume that you believe in God, don’t you? Another question: what is your attitude towards someone who threats you with torture or had badly abused someone you love? What is your attitude towards those who afflict unnecessary pain, and enjoy in doing so, towards other people? Or towards someone who are insensitive for other people’s needs but only pursue their own desires. Or towards someone who treats other person as a mere thing? Alex
Response:
A little more thorough, this time… Greetings I’m not very good in opening remarks, so please let me get to my points. 1. God only has immortality. Immortality is something we are instructed to seek for. It’s obviously not our natural condition. We are clothed upon with immortality at a future date.
It is true, God cannot die. God exists in eternity which is outside of time. God is changeless. Dying would certainly be a change, therefore He cannot do it. I do not suggest that mankind is eternal like God, no. Mankind has definite beginning, God does not. Rather than thinking of a man as living and then dead, think of it as the Bible tends to suggest, and that is that man ‘exists’. If apart from a saving reltionship with Christ, man ‘exists’ in death. With Christ, man ‘exists’ in life. Read Ephesians 2:1-5, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" According to the passage, we were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ and yet we ‘walked according to the cours of this world.’ Contrary to that movie title, you can’t find any dead man walking…UNLESS, when Paul uses ‘dead’ he doen’t mean non-existent. He can’t mean that and still make sense. Being dead doesn’t mean being non-existent, rather it means to be outside of Christ. In that case, before we knew Christ, we were all dead men (and women 
walking. 2. Immortal beings cannot die. However, the wages of sin is death. Therefore, the sinner will die in judgement. Sinners do not, nor, will not ever be immortal. If they are, then God has created an impossible process. He cannot enforce his own decree.
The word ‘mortal’ means ’subject to death’. Immortal means ‘not subject to death’. Can you think of anybody that you believe was a Christian that died? St. Augustine? Martin Luther? Johnathan Edwards? A family member? Were these people mortals or immortals? Well, since they died, they must have been mortals, not immortals. But, you might ask, how could they be Christians and not be immortal? Well we must consider that we can reference a death of the body as well as a death of the spirit. Anybody on this earth (currently) walking around is alive, but they are mortal. But any of these people could be ‘dead in their sins’. Outside of Christ, a person can have a living body and a dead spirit. However, having a dead spirit does not mean they don’t have a spirit at all. We don’t say that a person outside of Christ doesn’t have a dead spirit because, see passage above, God can "quicken us together with Christ." (To quicken means to make alive.) If a dead spirit means no spirit at all, then what is it that God quickens (makes alive)? But, if a dead spirit means a spirit in a deathly existence, then it is the spirit that God quickens. The point is that every human spirit is in a deathly existance unless or until God makes it alive. Being dead does not mean being non-existent. So Hell, being the ultimate death, is not a place where you are caused to be non-existent, but rather, it is a place where you exist in death–forever. 3. Jesus paid for our sins. He gave his life. The wages of sin is death. It’s not unending suffering. If it is, then Jesus will never complete the work. I had a fellow to tell me one time that Jesus "suffered eternally in a moment". That’s really clearcut, isn’t it? Long live theology! Without it, we’d never get above reason.
That which you cannot comprehend, you may be able to apprehend. Attempt to apprehend, rather than comprehend, that Christ received the fullest fierceness of God’s eternal wrath upon Himself while he lay on that cross. It may not be possible for us to fully understand the inner workings of this tragic miracle presently, but we must accept it. 4. This thing of "everlasting punishment". What’s the holdup? What does "punishment" mean? Suffer? Torture? Pain and agony? Of course not. Punishment only refers to an act. It doesn’t stipulate what happens. This makes it neccessary then to look to the scripture to find what that punishment is. Whatever we find it to be, it is everlasting, unchangable.
What do you mean by an act? Something that lasts only a minute or an hour or a week? How long is an act? How long is the curse God placed upon the earth when Adam sinned? Is it an act yet today? Logically, there is no reason to postulate that all punishments must be brief ‘acts’. Is it any wander folks look with disgust on nominal theology. A God of love? It’s hard to come up with that concept when we cast him in the light as one who would eternally preserve the lost in agony.
The love of God is made manifest when we consider that we have earned His eternal wrath. I understand your heart, though. It is indeed a large pill to swallow when we consider what an everlasting Hell is like. And yet, that is the way it is. It should move us to action, much as it moved Christ to preach upon it as often as He did. May the Word of God go forth, unadulterated and unmitigated. May it strike fear into the hearts of the impenitent and bring them to grips with the prospect of an eternal stay in Hell. (By the way, the prospect of a quick and painless annihilation is not the kind of thing that works to turn most folks from their sin.) In Christ, DLRM (Kerusso)
Response:
Alex, I agree with your post, but let us not forget that the sinner will be judged for one sin, that is rejecting Christ Jesus. Jesus tells us in that passage in Mark 9:38-50 and repeats the same statement 3 times: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:48 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelaton 20:14-15 Then Peter admonishes the House of God with: "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" I Peter 4:17-18 Friends, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Return to Prayer. Return to the word of God. Put your lives under surveilence.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear DW Suiter In my last reply I have tried to convey my moral perspective on the concept of ‘punishment’ and emphasized that the concept is tied to our belief that men are free and responsible agents. Human freedom is a moral dimension and it is precisely this dimension that manifests God’s image, as it is written: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Gen 1: 26, 27) Unfortunately man had fallen in sin. We cannot only blame others or the social order, as Adam blamed Eve. We have to realize that in the last instance we, as individuals, are also to be blamed. So, I cannot agree with you that ONLY social order of man creates criminals. If it is true that our actions are just effect of some social determinants, and our crimes are not individually accountable, then we are totally helpless with our sins; we cannot do anything with our moral weakness. We cannot view our actions as ultimately founded on our responsibility, to our own made choice. Bible tells different story. We are created for fellowship, we are created to live in a communion with our fellows, to manifests our intentionality towards other in love. But most important, we are created for fellowship with our Creator. However, we have acquired and inherit a sinful nature that is alien to the Divine nature. You are quite right to say that the social order, "laws of man," is unjust and bad. It is one of effects of the Man’s fall in sin. It is one of many effects, and it would not help to create a new social order unless the ultimate root for the sickness of our societies are cut away. The root is our inherited sinful nature. No, God does not punish. God offers salvation from this social order; from the laws of man; from the evil works of mankind. Yes, God offers salvation from this social order, but not only from this. He will give us much more. He will renew and regenerate our nature to be free from our inherited sinful state. But at the same time He can not tolerate and watch our sins to be not accountable, because He holds us individually responsible for our acts. Doesn’t He? The solution He offered, which you are aware of, is that He PUNISH Himself on the cross! Was Saul of Tarsus punished by God or saved by God? Why? According to your logic, he should have been punished for his acts and deeds. He was not. Saulus of Tarsus was not punished because there was someone else who took punishment for Saul. My logic is logic of cross. We do not need to be punished because there were someone who was punished for our acts and deeds. Someone else paid that prize. "Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth; He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth." (Isaiah 53: 4-7, A Prophecy of the Suffering of Messiah, ca. 740 BC) By the law of man; the the punishmnet of man; the Son and Christ of God was hated, despised, condemned, and crucified. If his accusers were of God, they would have loved him though they did not understand nor agree with what he was saying. In their "eyes" he had broken the law and the law prescribed punishment. These thought they were doing the will of God, for their religion taught the law they followed; taught to punish, as they carried out the punishment in obedience to the "law.". Biblical perspective of the suffering of Messiah is that He was punished because of our sins. That was the only solution that God could do anything with our moral fallen nature, a nature that pervades our morally sick society. On the foundation of Messiah’s death God can build a new social order that is just, where there is no poverty, where all members of society enjoy equality and freedom, where there is no elite or class distinctions. This is only possible if sin is ridden away from our human nature. Alex
The religious doctrine you have offered is insufficient in logic and reason. To say God punished Jesus of Nazareth is foolishness. Fallen mankind, in sin and evil, persecuted and punished the man Jesus of Nazareth against the will of God. Their logic and reasoning is simple. They believed in the religious law of punishment for those who broke their law. They did not know nor were they in obedience to the law of God. The apostles and many others experienced the same fate at the hands of mankind. These were not punished by God either but by mankind; religious minded, fallen mankind. The law of punishment is the law of fallen mankind. The law of God prescribes salvation from these who are the spiritually dead, being in the death which began with Adam. This death indeed was passed on from generation to generation, in and by the social order and the social laws, as well as religious laws of mankind, formulated, enacted and enforced by fallen mankind. In and by these same laws; social and religious; the social order of mankind is as it is in this day and hour. Mankind remains separated from the Livng God; His laws and principles. God is not punishing mankind. Mankind has brought on himself, his social ills by refusing the offer and promise of God to teach mankind His principles which structure the life God gives mankind. In this life, there is no punishment, for salvation of God negates the need for punishment of any kind. It is then, salvation by the love of God which corrects, not punishment. Punishment does not cause a social change for the better. Salvation of God does. The question of importance is why does mankind continue in his way instead of seeking salvation of and by the Living God? Because mankind has fallen away from the way; the true way; and follows false religious doctrine. Religion is part of the social order created by fallen mankind. Hence, "punishment" for violation of their law. DW Suiter
Response:
Dear DW Suiter In my last reply I have tried to convey my moral perspective on the concept of ‘punishment’ and emphasized that the concept is tied to our belief that men are free and responsible agents. Human freedom is a moral dimension and it is precisely this dimension that manifests God’s image, as it is written: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Gen 1: 26, 27) Unfortunately man had fallen in sin. We cannot only blame others or the social order, as Adam blamed Eve. We have to realize that in the last instance we, as individuals, are also to be blamed. So, I cannot agree with you that ONLY social order of man creates criminals. If it is true that our actions are just effect of some social determinants, and our crimes are not individually accountable, then we are totally helpless with our sins; we cannot do anything with our moral weakness. We cannot view our actions as ultimately founded on our responsibility, to our own made choice. Bible tells different story. We are created for fellowship, we are created to live in a communion with our fellows, to manifests our intentionality towards other in love. But most important, we are created for fellowship with our Creator. However, we have acquired and inherit a sinful nature that is alien to the Divine nature. You are quite right to say that the social order, "laws of man," is unjust and bad. It is one of effects of the Man’s fall in sin. It is one of many effects, and it would not help to create a new social order unless the ultimate root for the sickness of our societies are cut away. The root is our inherited sinful nature. No, God does not punish. God offers salvation from this social order; from the laws of man; from the evil works of mankind.
Yes, God offers salvation from this social order, but not only from this. He will give us much more. He will renew and regenerate our nature to be free from our inherited sinful state. But at the same time He can not tolerate and watch our sins to be not accountable, because He holds us individually responsible for our acts. Doesn’t He? The solution He offered, which you are aware of, is that He PUNISH Himself on the cross! Was Saul of Tarsus punished by God or saved by God? Why? According to your logic, he should have been punished for his acts and deeds. He was not.
Saulus of Tarsus was not punished because there was someone else who took punishment for Saul. My logic is logic of cross. We do not need to be punished because there were someone who was punished for our acts and deeds. Someone else paid that prize. "Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth; He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth." (Isaiah 53: 4-7, A Prophecy of the Suffering of Messiah, ca. 740 BC) By the law of man; the the punishmnet of man; the Son and Christ of God was hated, despised, condemned, and crucified. If his accusers were of God, they would have loved him though they did not understand nor agree with what he was saying. In their "eyes" he had broken the law and the law prescribed punishment. These thought they were doing the will of God, for their religion taught the law they followed; taught to punish, as they carried out the punishment in obedience to the "law.".
Biblical perspective of the suffering of Messiah is that He was punished because of our sins. That was the only solution that God could do anything with our moral fallen nature, a nature that pervades our morally sick society. On the foundation of Messiah’s death God can build a new social order that is just, where there is no poverty, where all members of society enjoy equality and freedom, where there is no elite or class distinctions. This is only possible if sin is ridden away from our human nature. Alex
Response:
(clipped for brevity) Thus, you can not escape the conclusion that God does indeed punish with perfect justice. Alex
There is no need for God to "punish." The corrective forces are already in place, as I said. For every action there is a reaction; a consequence, or as scripture declares, a "reward." "Punishment" is a creation of man. It is the rendering of evil for evil. Punishment does not work as is evidenced by the penal system in the United States, and the state of the social order. Punishment is a response of man towards evil done by man. Rather than punishing, God offers a way to be saved from doing evil; saved from the evil generations of mankind. It is an act of love. The concept of punishment came from man who does not know God yet interprets scripture for himself. For example, an "eye for an eye." In Truth of God this word pertains to exchanging one way of seeing things for another way of seeing things. The carnally minded man perverted the Truth of God into carnal application; into hatred, anger, and further works of evil. The law of man prescribes retaliation and punishment. The true law of God prescribes salvation from this mind and spirit. The law of religion which was also the law of government, has brought along with it, the law of punishment. Man has reaped what he has sown. The social order of mankind is structured by mankind, in and by the principles he has selected to live life by. Absent is the love of God in man. Present is the mind and spirit of being judge, jury, and executioner. Evil exists in the mind of man because of lack of love for God and the ways of God. It is man who lacks knowledge and understanding of these ways of God. The greater damnation comes on those who say they are ministers of God and are not. Those who do not teach truth as Jesus of Nazareth taught truth. In and by these, man remains without knowledge and understanding of God. It is not the sheep who are damned but the sheperds who lead them along this way. Who in the eyes and judgment of God is the thief; the one who steals bread for his starving children, or the one who established the social order which creates the hungry and deprived? The prisons are overflowing. Prison construction is one of the largest government expenditures in this day. Why? The law of man creates criminals. The social order of man creates criminals. But who does God hold responsible? No, God does not punish. God offers salvation from this social order; from the laws of man; from the evil works of mankind. Was Saul of Tarsus punished by God or saved by God? Why? According to your logic, he should have been punished for his acts and deeds. He was not. By the law of man; the the punishmnet of man; the Son and Christ of God was hated, despised, condemned, and crucified. If his accusers were of God, they would have loved him though they did not understand nor agree with what he was saying. In their "eyes" he had broken the law and the law prescribed punishment. These thought they were doing the will of God, for their religion taught the law they followed; taught to punish, as they carried out the punishment in obedience to the "law.". To do harm to another in and by punishment is to follow the law of fallen man and reject the law of God. As for fear; perfect love casts out all fear. DW Suiter
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God does not "punish." DW Suiter Quickly… Who says? Romans 12:19 says, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Generally, the same word for punishment is also translated punishment in the Bible (especially OT). Why is it so distasteful to consider that God would not, could not, should not punish? Who’s in charge anway? –DLRM The thought of God "punishing" came from the minds of man and indeed is conveyed in the "old testament" which was religious law. The true nature of God was revealed by Jesus of Nazareth who revealed the true spiritual law of God.
But DLRM quotes Rom. 12:19 which states that God can manifest His wrath against human crimes. The point is that God’s wrath manifested through punishment is not only an OT idea, but is also present in NT. What do we mean by God’s wrath, His anger against all atrocities humans commit? That He is a mere passive observer or that He also participate in manifesting His wrath? The interesting thing is that Jesus is the one who preached most of all prophets about Hell. Understanding the nature of God reveals the wisdom of God. There is no good which comes from punishing. Good comes from changing and correcting.
Good comes not from social conditioning but through one interpersonal relationship where we regard each other as responsible beings. If someone is responsible for some crimes, then the agent is guilty. This entitle that such person should be confronted with the committed acts and accordingly be justly punished after the degree of the offence. There is nothing wrong with just punishment. In confronting such person with its guilt we respect such person as responsible and free. In punishing such person for the committed crimes, we confirm her freedom, and do not regard such person as some robot who acts by some predetermined factors. We do not want to socially condition such person but rather confront him/her because we regard him/her responsible. If man violates the law of gravity and becomes injured, is this punishment of God? No. It is the consequence of violating a law. So also violation of spiritual law brings consequences. Obedience to spiritual law brings consequences.
We are talking about moral laws which have foundations on our belief that we human beings, as created after God image, are free and responsible agents; that we do possess a free will which God respects and take it very seriously. Therefore we should not compare moral laws with physical laws which are mere mechanical. Moral laws are not grounded on some mechanical and consequentialistic schema, but they are grounded on one inter-personal fellowship. If someone brutally tortured your beloved, would you take it quite easy or be MORALLY outraged by such crime. Do we not cry for justice when we are confronted with unspeakable crimes, and what this demand of JUSTICE consists of? We should be honest when we try to answer those questions. Superstition and old wives tales played a big part in the religious beliefs of man who created the old testament. It is lack of knowledge which causes man to create his beliefs concerning God.
Are men in our modern western democracy much better than in the period before Christ? You have still wars, disintegration of families are so usual that we are not shocked by its presence, kids killing other kids at school, prostitution and sick sexual perversions, widespread of pornography, killing million infants by abortion, …, sins which God condemns. It is too simplistic to blame on our culture or on our upbringing. They are partly factors for our actions but they are not sufficient. Bible teach us that we have free will, that we have ability to choose between pursuing only satisfaction of our lusts and following His moral laws which would confirm of our human dignity that manifest God’s light in the world. Lack of knowledge is also our responsibility. We have also responsibility what moral beliefs we choose to accept. Rather than using fear to guide man, love is used by God. The word chastise is used properly for instruction or teaching which is effective only when seen and understood as matter of principle.
There are numerous passages that talk about "fear of God" The beginning of the Wisdom is fear of God. What that expression means? It means that we, as His children, have one respect and one awe for His Holy character. We fear of not to hurt our Father through our neglect of His Will. We fear of not to come short, and that His esteem of us is low. We fear also that He doesn’t become angry because of our sins, which He hates. It is precisely those same sins which has crucified our Lord. We fear of His silence when He stop talking to us. And we fear that we don’t cause God to justly punish us in His righteous indignation and sorrow. Our God is Person who also have feelings, feelings which we can hurt, as small children can hurt their parents. Through experience of our personal dimension in our lives we learn to know God’s nature and His character. God is not some mechanically minded personality, but a Person with intentions and emotions. Before punishment must come trial, judgment, and condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. The principle is this. Mankind is as children who err. A child is not punished, but corrected when erring, with love.
Why should the word "punishment" evoke only bad associations? For me punishment is just one confirmation of the responsibility and freedom, because punishment is only done towards those who are guilty. Guilt presupposes responsibility. It is the will of God that none perish but come into the knowledge of Truth.
That is absolutely true. He wants that everyone is saved. But He doesn’t want to force us to accept Him, even if our acceptance of Him as our Lord is the only condition for the salvation of our souls. He respects our choice, precisely because He takes it more seriously than would our other fellow human take it. Yes, He truly respects and take our Free Will very seriously. It is the will of God that man live life in peace, love, and joy. The parable of the prodigal son reveals the mind and will of God towards the errant son.
Yes, God waits in His patience that we can repent and enjoy our fellowship with Him. However we cannot have fellowship with Him unless we repent. Can you have fellowship with someone who insulted you and who does not care to reconcile with you? I think not. The teaching of a punishing God comes with the old hellfire and damnation preachings of the unenlightened and parents who teach children "God will get you" when they err.
Was it unenlightened to punish war criminals, Nazis who were responsible for killing six millions of Jews in concentration camps? It would be morally wrong if we didn’t react with hatred towards such unspeakable atrocities. What about God? Is He indifferent towards killing of six millions of Jews, of killing and suffering of millions of homeless children in Brazil who are treated as animals, is He indifferent for evil manifestations where helpless and innocent men and women are abused and tortured by men that enjoy afflicting pain. WE SHOULD CRY FOR JUSTICE, a justice that demands a righteous punishment. In our discussion of the concept of punishment we should be aware of how our human nature can be deprived, though not totally deprived because there is always hope. God loves us in spite of our vile crimes and our egoistical insensitivity towards other people. God loves us in spite of the fact that we daily quench the dignity of God’s light and image in our lives, that we hurts our fellows through our insensitivity. In hurting other people we hurt our God. (Remember what Jesus says to those he declared that He never knew them. He said that they didn’t visit Him when He was in prison, that they didn’t give Him food when He was hungry, that they never care about Him when He was in dire need. And what did they respond to Jesus’ accusation? They asked Him when did they saw Him in prison, or hungry, etc. Jesus answered them that by neglecting to help other people in need they neglected to help Him!) God loves us and He patiently wait that we will repent. But even His patience can end some day. He is a Person like you and me, but who has a morally and mature perfect character, a Person with a Holy Will, which we should respect and fear. Fear is not necessarily negative attitude. It can be either destructive or constructive. We are talking about a constructive fear manifested through our respect and love, coupled with our awe for His greatness. Do the hungry and homeless exist because God is punishing these? Do the many sick and ill exist because God is punishing these? No, these are the consequences of the acts of man.
Yes, I agree! But those acts of men who leads millions of people hungry will be punished one day on the Judgement Seat. What is the meaning of Judgement? Simply, one assessment of the criminal acts and decision of which punishment the guilty one justly deserves to take. The foundational law and principle on which all law of God is established is love.
Yes, the same love which does not tolerate egoism, perversions, lies, murder, greediness, and other vices which are just negations of the same love you preach. We shall love in truth and not with some characterless "love" which is not a love at all. Love which is bold to confront other people with their wrongdoing, love which does not coerce or manipulate, love which treat other people as PERSONS and not things, love which does not allow that other people are only means to our desires, but that they are someone who we respect in … read more »
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -God does not "punish." DW Suiter Quickly… Who says? Romans 12:19 says, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Generally, the same word for punishment is also translated punishment in the Bible (especially OT). Why is it so distasteful to consider that God would not, could not, should not punish? Who’s in charge anway? –DLRM
The thought of God "punishing" came from the minds of man and indeed is conveyed in the "old testament" which was religious law. The true nature of God was revealed by Jesus of Nazareth who revealed the true spiritual law of God. Understanding the nature of God reveals the wisdom of God. There is no good which comes from punishing. Good comes from changing and correcting. If man violates the law of gravity and becomes injured, is this punishment of God? No. It is the consequence of violating a law. So also violation of spiritual law brings consequences. Obedience to spiritual law brings consequences. Superstition and old wives tales played a big part in the religious beliefs of man who created the old testament. It is lack of knowledge which causes man to create his beliefs concerning God. Rather than using fear to guide man, love is used by God. The word chastise is used properly for instruction or teaching which is effective only when seen and understood as matter of principle. Before punishment must come trial, judgment, and condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. The principle is this. Mankind is as children who err. A child is not punished, but corrected when erring, with love. It is the will of God that none perish but come into the knowledge of Truth. It is the will of God that man live life in peace, love, and joy. The parable of the prodigal son reveals the mind and will of God towards the errant son. It is amusing that insurance policies declare destructive forces of nature to be "an act of God" as if God is "punishing" man without regard to the innocent and righteous. The teaching of a punishing God comes with the old hellfire and damnation preachings of the unenlightened and parents who teach children "God will get you" when they err. The "sins" or erroneous beliefs and thoughts of man, cause man to bring on himself the consequences of his acts. When these become part of the social order man has structeured for himself, these "sins" are carried on by following generations; children of the fathers. For example, the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights were established in principle for the structuring of a social order. The intent conveyed was that man has a "right" to be free from unjust law imposed on him by others of mankind. This "spirit" of the law has been replaced by the minds of those who sit in power and declare "what" the word of the law intends. In and by this, the freedom intended by the founding fathers has been taken away, to be replaced by oppressive laws. Is this punishment of God? Do the hungry and homeless exist because God is punishing these? Do the many sick and ill exist because God is punishing these? No, these are the consequences of the acts of man. The laws of God are just and equitable. The consequence of obedience to these laws is a life of peace, love, and joy. This life is seldom seen in the social order of man because man does not incorporate the laws of God into his social order. The founding fathers set forth in law, declaration of freedom; declaration of certain inalienable rights given man by God. In agreement with this document is the Declaration of Independence, which declares man has a right to assume a station provided by Nature and the God of Nature. This "station" is a life which man may live, in and by the law and principles of God, unhindered and unrestricted by others of mankind. The foundational law and principle on which all law of God is established is love. If man had followed the ways of God; the principles of God; rather than the principles not of God as is now; life would be a consequence of obedience to the principles of God; the life God gives man to live. What man experiences as life in the social order established by others for him; the "government;" is the consequence of following principles not of God. Man "punishes" himself, or allows others of man to punish him, becoming the downtrodden; the oppressed. The offer of God is to set man free; to save man from the life man has created for himself. If man rejects the offer of God, God does not punish man, but lets him go his own way. Yet as He told Abraham of the two ways he may go, and the consequences of each way, so also the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth revealed to man these same ways. If man rejects the offer of salvation from the life fellow man has structured for him to live, this man continues on in his beliefs and opinions when passing on, experiencing the consequences of his thoughts, beliefs and opinions. For many, this is the reality of a living hell, as is seen in many in this day and hour, as life is lived day by day here and now. The torment of the mind does not cease when passing on. The pain and sorrow of the mind continues. This, man has brought on himself. God has warned and taught man Truth concerning these matters. DW Suiter
Response:
Greetings I’m not very good in opening remarks, so please let me get to my points. 1. God only has immortality. Immortality is something we are instructed to seek for. It’s obviously not our natural condition. We are clothed upon with immortality at a future date.
God is the only Being which was not created by anyone and He is the source od everything. I believe that He can create everything which is logically possible? It is logically possible for Him to create souls that never dies. Do you doubt that God is not able to create such souls? What if He has created us with one immortal soul, especially if our souls have the origin in His spirit, which He had breathed in us? I do not take the chance that my soul can be totally anihilated, while I would welcome that possibility. I woul rather take seriously Jesus’ warning about Hell; it is precisely because of Hell that He chose to give Himself as sacrifice for our sins, and to give His blood which is the only thing in the Universe that can clean us from our sins while we are still corporal. 2. Immortal beings cannot die. However, the wages of sin is death. Therefore, the sinner will die in judgement. Sinners do not, nor, will not ever be immortal. If they are, then God has created an impossible process. He cannot enforce his own decree.
That is correct, immortal soul cannot die in the sense that it cannot be annihilated (be totally destroyed). What it means to die? When I physically die, then my soul is seperated from my physical body. The spiritual death, what Bible calls "second death," is a soul’s seperation from God, which is eternal. It is spiritual death because this death seperates souls from the Spirit of God. This interpretation of the meaning of death is equally plausible and quite consistent with other Biblical passages. Especialy with those passages that describe Hell, and those verses that talks about "eternal damnation" and "eternal fire." I do not understand what is impossible with the existence of Hell? What do you mean that the doctrine of eternal damnation in Hell leads us to beleive that He cannot enforce His own decree? I do not understand you? Please clarify it more for me. 3. Jesus paid for our sins. He gave his life. The wages of sin is death. It’s not unending suffering. If it is, then Jesus will never complete the work. I had a fellow to tell me one time that Jesus "suffered eternally in a moment". That’s really clearcut, isn’t it? Long live theology! Without it, we’d never get above reason.
Well, the pain He experienced was infinite in the virtue of His infinity, and not because He suffers eternaly in duration of time. I did not use attribute to God the atribute of "eternal suffering," please read more carefully my text. So, please explain to me what is contradictory to say for God that He experienced in His WHOLE infinite Being a pain, and by that token experienced one infinite pain, in those moments of His agony on the cross. Please, do not ridicule it, but seriously point out the alleged contradiction of my perspective. Was it necessarily for God to go through such agony on the cross if men could just be anihilated. For Him it was not a joke to go through such agony, because He was painfully aware that His men will be lost in Hell, not that they would just die physically. Who are those souls in the Hell and the Lake of Fire? If their souls were mortal, why then did God waken them up to give them pain? That is more cruel of Him. 4. This thing of "everlasting punishment". What’s the holdup? What does "punishment" mean? Suffer? Torture? Pain and agony? Of course not. Punishment only refers to an act.
Someone is in prison all life as a punishment for his/her crimes. It doesn’t stipulate what happens. This makes it neccessary then to look to the scripture to find what that punishment is. Whatever we find it to be, it is everlasting, unchangable.
A death which can simply mean a seperation from God’s Holy Presence, Grace and Love, as physical death means seperation from the physical body. Is it any wander folks look with disgust on nominal theology. A God of love? It’s hard to come up with that concept when we cast him in the light as one who would eternally preserve the lost in agony.
It shows that you did not read carefully my previous post, to which you replied. He does not want to manipulate our choice, even if it could save us from Hell. He rather respects and take seriously our free will, and is not that LOVE? He even allow Himself to be brutally killed because that was the only way to save us. He cannot save satan and all demons who are in Hell. They have through their choice BECOME evil, and evil is preciselly a nature that is WHOLY alien to God. We men have opportunity to be forgiven because we have a physical body that makes us possible to change and develop maturity in Christ. When we die, then we have no more ability to be changed, we would reap what we have sowed. Shal we blame God for Hell? Shall we blame God because our souls are immortal, and were created that we can enjoy the eternal presence of Him? It is written that God wants everyone saved, but He choose not to manipulate our free will, and that would be very easily for Him to accomplish. He does not because He respects our will, even if our will is revolting against His Holy Will. Isn’t that LOVE? But we cannot expect that we can come near to His presence if we die in our sins, since it is impossible, AS IT WAS EXPLAINED. I will repeat the important reason why: A soul who died in its sins cannot come near God, even if God wanted to be near that soul, because sins in that soul are total negation of God’s nature and Holy Being, sins which cannot be separated from the soul. How can such soul come near God? It is impossible! Think about looking with naked eyes on the sun. Can you do it without becoming painfully blind? And it is God who created sun and all the stars. So, it is not the case that God sadistically throw us to Hell, but rather that He CANNOT, is not ABLE, it is even impossible for Him, to let us come near Him, since our sinful nature is TOTALLY alien to Him; He cannot stand our sins, and He is disgusted by our crimes. Can you take something in your mouth which is nausating and disgusting, like insects or shit? Sin is something we should not take so easy. When we sin we simply hurt our God by quenching the light of His image (nature) in our lives. Alex
Response:
God does not "punish." DW Suiter
Quickly… Who says? Romans 12:19 says, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Generally, the same word for punishment is also translated punishment in the Bible (especially OT). Why is it so distasteful to consider that God would not, could not, should not punish? Who’s in charge anway? –DLRM
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings I’m not very good in opening remarks, so please let me get to my points. 1. God only has immortality. Immortality is something we are instructed to seek for. It’s obviously not our natural condition. We are clothed upon with immortality at a future date. 2. Immortal beings cannot die. However, the wages of sin is death. Therefore, the sinner will die in judgement. Sinners do not, nor, will not ever be immortal. If they are, then God has created an impossible process. He cannot enforce his own decree. 3. Jesus paid for our sins. He gave his life. The wages of sin is death. It’s not unending suffering. If it is, then Jesus will never complete the work. I had a fellow to tell me one time that Jesus "suffered eternally in a moment". That’s really clearcut, isn’t it? Long live theology! Without it, we’d never get above reason. 4. This thing of "everlasting punishment". What’s the holdup? What does "punishment" mean? Suffer? Torture? Pain and agony? Of course not. Punishment only refers to an act. It doesn’t stipulate what happens. This makes it neccessary then to look to the scripture to find what that punishment is. Whatever we find it to be, it is everlasting, unchangable. Is it any wander folks look with disgust on nominal theology. A God of love? It’s hard to come up with that concept when we cast him in the light as one who would eternally preserve the lost in agony.
Quickly, Christians commonly say, "God is love." Does that equate that "love is God"? No. There are different kinds of love, not each of which is godly. God is also "kind." Is kindness "God"? No, for sinners may even be kind to themselves. It is funny how we draw conclusions on God without contemplating the holiness of God. When we consider what holiness means and then recognize that God IS holy and the holiness IS God, then we shall better grasp why the punishment of Hell will not ever end.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The doctrine of Eternal Punishment is a serious thesis which deserves a lot of discussions. However those discussions should be engaged within the framework of Christian Philosophy, where we do accept some of the important teachings of Jesus Christ and have some degree of respect towards Bible. It is open to question what we should regard as important, or if some of the teachings are truly Biblical or not. One of those teachings open to debate is the doctrine of Eternal Damnation. Some Christians believe in this doctrine because they are convinced by some texts in Bible which strongly support it. However there are some Christians who refuse to believe in such doctrine, mostly because of theological considerations on the moral nature of God. I agree with those who have a distaste for the dogmatical approach that the doctrine of eternal damnation is hard to swallow. However, we should carefully examine both pro and contra for the thesis of the eternal punishment in one non-dogmatic way. I am also aware that many people refuse to be Christians because of the disputed doctrine. I had also serious problems with acceptation of that horrible metaphysical possibility, when I was confronted with that question. However it is better to be confronted with this question NOW than too late, IF it is really true that Hell is one place where people will be in one unbearable pain without God in the whole eternity, with no end. I have read some argumentation against the possibility of eternal punishment, and I think that most people who seriously is concerned with that question would also be able to express strong doubts about the doctrine. Perhaps those who denies that there is no Hell, a place where people would be in an unbearable pain without God in all eternity, are right in their attitude. I would certainly be very happy if they were right in their belief. But can we be so sure that the doctrine of Eternal Punishment is a false doctrine, a falsity which can shortly be justified as follows: "Eternal punishment in hell is not possible because God would be rendered as one capricious evil God"? I believe that we cannot be so sure about it, because there are some considerations which suggests that the Teaching of Eternal Punishment is a true one. 1) Why did God incarnate Himself to die on the cross, if those who choose not to believe in Him would just be temporally punished? It would not be necessary for Him to incarnate Himself as a man, and go over all the trouble of suffering and death. Remember that God in human flesh did experience PAIN, and as a man he did indeed suffered an unbearable agony. This is significant because it is not an ordinary person who suffered PAIN, but an infinite BEING in one finite flesh. That means that His pain on those moments (no matter how short) was experienced by one infinite Being, that God in His infinity endured pain in it’s integrity, that He received the pain in it’s WHOLE being in it’s totality. Thus, He endured one infinite agony. If you multiply one finite cardinal number with one infinite, the result is one infinite cardinal (result of Cantor’s mathematics on the theory of infinite cardinals). If He has experience of one infinite pain, why should not we, who refuse Him as the only solution to our reconciliation and absolution, be saved from the horrible predicament of Hell? 2) We often regard God as Almighty, and by that we usually mean that He can do ABSOLUTELY everything. What if that view is completely false, as there are strong reasons to doubt in such notion of Omnipotence. What kind of consequences then we should bear in mind? Perhaps God cannot save those who die in their sin, who was not cleaned and purified by His blood, those who had opportunity to be purified while they still had a physical body. Bible teach us that only thing which can clean a man from all sins is God’s pure blood. Therefore it was necessary for Him to give His blood and to die for all those who choose to believe in Him. If it is true that even God is helpless in saving those souls who died in sin, how much sorrow He truly has for those lost souls. Do you think that He is just indifferent for their predicament, and that He enjoys when a soul is separated from Him? He is a Perfect Person, who feels much more sorrow and empathy towards those lost, than you and me. He is a Vulnerable God, a Vulnerability proved on the cross. He is a Person who is full of perfect maturity and character, a Personality which participate in all spectrum of emotions (feelings) that we in our humanity are able to experience. That we experience us as personal beings is not to wonder because He has created us in His image, an image which embodies a Personal dimension of His Godhead. He can feel both sorrow and joy, hate and love, indignation and jubilation, all feelings that we humans also experience. But He is not evil. To feel hate is not negative. I hate atrocities committed by Nazis. It would be morally wrong not to hate those unspeakable crimes. Don’t you think that God more hates those crimes than you and me in its intensity? I think that it is plausibly to assume about His strong moral aversions towards our crimes which we often commit in our lives, crimes that degrades humanity in our lives, a humanity which was created in His likeness and image. This leads to the last and important reason why Hell is indeed a place where lost souls are eternally damned. 3) What do you think of some soul who died in its sins, who is separated by the physical body, a body where it was possible to change and develop? Don’t you think that such soul is now inseparable from those sins, with no more possibility to be changed? That means that the soul becomes identified with all those sins, which was not purged away by the blood of our Lord. Now we know that one thing in the universe which God hates in its full intensity is sin. Sin is that which is totally alien to God. Sin is abominable and disgusting for God. He cannot tolerate sins, in the same way you cannot eat alive spiders or eat shit. Please imagine yourself eating something which is for you truly disgusting, like a fat cockroach or other "cute" insect. I believe that you could not do that and enjoy it. You would feel intense nausea; with God this intensity of disgust towards sin is infinitely more intense than yours. A soul who died in its sins cannot come near God, even if God wanted to be near this soul, because sins in its soul are total negation of God’s nature and Holy Being, sins which cannot be separated from the soul. How can such soul come near God? It is impossible! Think about looking with naked eyes on the sun. Can you do it without becoming painfully blind? And it is God who created sun and all the stars. The thing would be simple if our human soul is a mortal soul. But it isn’t. We do posses something which is immortal, because we are beings who are created after His likeness and image. Because of that God regards us seriously and with responsibility, a responsibility which is sometimes heavy to bear. A responsibility of our Freedom. Alex
Greetings I’m not very good in opening remarks, so please let me get to my points. 1. God only has immortality. Immortality is something we are instructed to seek for. It’s obviously not our natural condition. We are clothed upon with immortality at a future date. 2. Immortal beings cannot die. However, the wages of sin is death. Therefore, the sinner will die in judgement. Sinners do not, nor, will not ever be immortal. If they are, then God has created an impossible process. He cannot enforce his own decree. 3. Jesus paid for our sins. He gave his life. The wages of sin is death. It’s not unending suffering. If it is, then Jesus will never complete the work. I had a fellow to tell me one time that Jesus "suffered eternally in a moment". That’s really clearcut, isn’t it? Long live theology! Without it, we’d never get above reason. 4. This thing of "everlasting punishment". What’s the holdup? What does "punishment" mean? Suffer? Torture? Pain and agony? Of course not. Punishment only refers to an act. It doesn’t stipulate what happens. This makes it neccessary then to look to the scripture to find what that punishment is. Whatever we find it to be, it is everlasting, unchangable. Is it any wander folks look with disgust on nominal theology. A God of love? It’s hard to come up with that concept when we cast him in the light as one who would eternally preserve the lost in agony.
Response:
The doctrine of Eternal Punishment is a serious thesis which deserves a lot of discussions. However those discussions should be engaged within the framework of Christian Philosophy, where we do accept some of the important teachings of Jesus Christ and have some degree of respect towards Bible. It is open to question what we should regard as important, or if some of the teachings are truly Biblical or not. One of those teachings open to debate is the doctrine of Eternal Damnation. Some Christians believe in this doctrine because they are convinced by some texts in Bible which strongly support it. However there are some Christians who refuse to believe in such doctrine, mostly because of theological considerations on the moral nature of God.
(clipped for brevity) The subject matter you have conveyed is a matter argued by many by varying diiferences of belief and opinion. Unless mankind gains knowledge of truth of this matter, he shall continue to do so. Pain and sorrow of the mind exists now in mankind. Man brings on himself his pain and sorrow. Man has free will to choose for himself, the life he shall live, which is honored by God. Fear, doubt, worry, anxiety, self conviction and self condemnation, exist now in the minds of mankind. The contents of the mind of man remain when mankind passes on from the physical body into and onto eternal life. What man "is" determines the ongoing life he shall live. In and by this, man may see and understand ongoing pain and sorrow, which are the consequences of his choosing; the principles he has structured his life in and by. God does not "punish." DW Suiter
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The doctrine of Eternal Punishment is a serious thesis which deserves a lot of discussions. However those discussions should be engaged within the framework of Christian Philosophy, where we do accept some of the important teachings of Jesus Christ and have some degree of respect towards Bible. It is open to question what we should regard as important, or if some of the teachings are truly Biblical or not. One of those teachings open to debate is the doctrine of Eternal Damnation. Some Christians believe in this doctrine because they are convinced by some texts in Bible which strongly support it. However there are some Christians who refuse to believe in such doctrine, mostly because of theological considerations on the moral nature of God. I agree with those who have a distaste for the dogmatical approach that the doctrine of eternal damnation is hard to swallow. However, we should carefully examine both pro and contra for the thesis of the eternal punishment in one non-dogmatic way. I am also aware that many people refuse to be Christians because of the disputed doctrine. I had also serious problems with acceptation of that horrible metaphysical possibility, when I was confronted with that question. However it is better to be confronted with this question NOW than too late, IF it is really true that Hell is one place where people will be in one unbearable pain without God in the whole eternity, with no end. I have read some argumentation against the possibility of eternal punishment, and I think that most people who seriously is concerned with that question would also be able to express strong doubts about the doctrine. Perhaps those who denies that there is no Hell, a place where people would be in an unbearable pain without God in all eternity, are right in their attitude. I would certainly be very happy if they were right in their belief. But can we be so sure that the doctrine of Eternal Punishment is a false doctrine, a falsity which can shortly be justified as follows: "Eternal punishment in hell is not possible because God would be rendered as one capricious evil God"? I believe that we cannot be so sure about it, because there are some considerations which suggests that the Teaching of Eternal Punishment is a true one. 1) Why did God incarnate Himself to die on the cross, if those who choose not to believe in Him would just be temporally punished? It would not be necessary for Him to incarnate Himself as a man, and go over all the trouble of suffering and death. Remember that God in human flesh did experience PAIN, and as a man he did indeed suffered an unbearable agony. This is significant because it is not an ordinary person who suffered PAIN, but an infinite BEING in one finite flesh. That means that His pain on those moments (no matter how short) was experienced by one infinite Being, that God in His infinity endured pain in it’s integrity, that He received the pain in it’s WHOLE being in it’s totality. Thus, He endured one infinite agony. If you multiply one finite cardinal number with one infinite, the result is one infinite cardinal (result of Cantor’s mathematics on the theory of infinite cardinals). If He has experience of one infinite pain, why should not we, who refuse Him as the only solution to our reconciliation and absolution, be saved from the horrible predicament of Hell? 2) We often regard God as Almighty, and by that we usually mean that He can do ABSOLUTELY everything. What if that view is completely false, as there are strong reasons to doubt in such notion of Omnipotence. What kind of consequences then we should bear in mind? Perhaps God cannot save those who die in their sin, who was not cleaned and purified by His blood, those who had opportunity to be purified while they still had a physical body. Bible teach us that only thing which can clean a man from all sins is God’s pure blood. Therefore it was necessary for Him to give His blood and to die for all those who choose to believe in Him. If it is true that even God is helpless in saving those souls who died in sin, how much sorrow He truly has for those lost souls. Do you think that He is just indifferent for their predicament, and that He enjoys when a soul is separated from Him? He is a Perfect Person, who feels much more sorrow and empathy towards those lost, than you and me. He is a Vulnerable God, a Vulnerability proved on the cross. He is a Person who is full of perfect maturity and character, a Personality which participate in all spectrum of emotions (feelings) that we in our humanity are able to experience. That we experience us as personal beings is not to wonder because He has created us in His image, an image which embodies a Personal dimension of His Godhead. He can feel both sorrow and joy, hate and love, indignation and jubilation, all feelings that we humans also experience. But He is not evil. To feel hate is not negative. I hate atrocities committed by Nazis. It would be morally wrong not to hate those unspeakable crimes. Don’t you think that God more hates those crimes than you and me in its intensity? I think that it is plausibly to assume about His strong moral aversions towards our crimes which we often commit in our lives, crimes that degrades humanity in our lives, a humanity which was created in His likeness and image. This leads to the last and important reason why Hell is indeed a place where lost souls are eternally damned. 3) What do you think of some soul who died in its sins, who is separated by the physical body, a body where it was possible to change and develop? Don’t you think that such soul is now inseparable from those sins, with no more possibility to be changed? That means that the soul becomes identified with all those sins, which was not purged away by the blood of our Lord. Now we know that one thing in the universe which God hates in its full intensity is sin. Sin is that which is totally alien to God. Sin is abominable and disgusting for God. He cannot tolerate sins, in the same way you cannot eat alive spiders or eat shit. Please imagine yourself eating something which is for you truly disgusting, like a fat cockroach or other "cute" insect. I believe that you could not do that and enjoy it. You would feel intense nausea; with God this intensity of disgust towards sin is infinitely more intense than yours. A soul who died in its sins cannot come near God, even if God wanted to be near this soul, because sins in its soul are total negation of God’s nature and Holy Being, sins which cannot be separated from the soul. How can such soul come near God? It is impossible! Think about looking with naked eyes on the sun. Can you do it without becoming painfully blind? And it is God who created sun and all the stars. The thing would be simple if our human soul is a mortal soul. But it isn’t. We do posses something which is immortal, because we are beings who are created after His likeness and image. Because of that God regards us seriously and with responsibility, a responsibility which is sometimes heavy to bear. A responsibility of our Freedom. Alex
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Very profound words from Alex: We do posses something which is immortal, because we are beings who are created after His likeness and image. Because of that God regards us seriously and with responsibility, a responsibility which is sometimes heavy to bear. You are correct. Every soul is immortal, and will exist forever either in heaven with the Lord, or in Hell apart from the Lord. Yes, we were created in His image. Part of that image is having moral agency. Our wills exercised, have cause and effect. But, only God’s will is perfect and good. Our wills have been corrupted by sin, and are only inclined to evil. God regards us very seriously, and holds us accountable because of how He created us . . .good. However, we have fallen into sin and are unable to be good any more. Therefore, we need someone to be good for us. Answer: A Savior. Jesus Christ, who was perfectly good. You are correct. We were not created to bear evil, or even know about it. We cannot handle it. Only God can deal with evil, and He is in the process of putting it away forever. There is only one Person who could "bear evil" and that was Jesus Christ. He bore it and destroyed it with His body and blood. He died to rid the world of its power. He prepared a perfect place; His kingdom, and His chosen ones will inhabit it with Him, completely free from sin, death, and the devil. Hell is the eternal repository for evil. Thank God, in heaven, believers will be forever separated from all evil. Praise His Holy name! — GoldRush For Scriptures & Christian Studies visit http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush
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I went to Bali a couple of years ago to collect Gamelan instruments and stayed in Ubud for a week. It is small enough island that you can get to lots of places from any central town like Ubud. The standard books — Moon, Lonely Planet, are excellent and will tell you what you need to know. Besakih Temple is the "Vatican". The temples on or near the volcanic lakes north of Ubud are also great. There is also a temple in every town (with a Gamelan, which means orchestra) and there is a temple in every house. The Gamelans are made in special towns full of metal shapers; other towns are devoted to carving wood or stone. You can stay from $20 a nite (probably even less with the drop in the currency last year) to over $600. I went in the $50-100 range and stayed at the Tjampuhan Hotel, which is converted from the 30’s house of Walter Spies, the German who """created""" Balinese art as we know it today. Wonderful place. New issue of Arthur Frommer’s travel magazine has stuff on where to stay cheap; they rate it as one of the world’s great travel bargains. I can’t guess as to the effect of being part Chinese. Bali is not as intense as Java, where the big problems have been. I would find a Balinese friend before I go and have them show you around. That would certainly not hurt. In may case, I rented a car and driver for about $60 a day. He was great, and was avail 24 hours as I needed him. Best part was visiting his house in the jungle. I now have over 1700 pounds (according to the shipping manifest) of Gamelan instruments at my house here in Texas. contact me for more info best Gary Hoover Austin, Texas
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I was in Yogyakarta in November and found it safe. Many tourists have been scared off by stories of riots in Jakarata being generlized to all of Java and Indonesia. The tour guide we hired at Borobadur said they have had an 80% drop in tourists since June 98. He and many others are very gentle people who make their living from serving tourists and are really hurting from this loss. I walked around much of downtown Yogyakarta at night and had only good experiences. There are many students who are from all over Indonesia there at the universities who want to mee foreigners who they can practice English and other languages with. I saw several gamelan bands and shadow puppet shows in and around Yogya; most had almost no tourists there. I stayed at Bladok Losmen near city centre. It was clean, pleasant and well run. Single room was $5 US per day. Met people running a project for street kids in the south end of the city. They run an organic foods restaurant to help fund the street kids project. Really good people. It is Milas Restaurant on Mantrijeron street. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an art lover, I recommend to skip Kuta/Legian area and go straight to Ubud/Gianyar and Klungkung areas where you can visit not only the museums and touristic performances, but also the creaters’ atliers for instance in Pengosekan (south of Ibud) and Kamasan (village of the traditional Balinese painters), plus the Museum of Classical Balinese Paintings in Klungkung. Hope you explore the sophistication of the Indonesian people and arts, whenever you might decide to go there. Kika, thanks for your post. It seems that this trip to Indonesia keeps getting whittled down every time I try and make plans or consider going there. I want to go to Irian Jaya, but that is not safe. Then Java is rather questionable, leaving just Bali. I really want to stay off the beaten path, and although I’m confident that this is possible on the island of Bali, part of my hopes were to explore the Javanes gamelan music that I love so much. This may be a trip that will need to be postponed yet again for a better time (I’m considering going to Morocco, and have been tentatively asked if I could assist in recording an album of Moroccan musicians there!). I’m sure I’d like Bali, but it just seems like there are increasing limitations to what I can do in Indonesia. And obviously, I’m posting this opinion from a really selfish point of view, since the political situation in Irian Jaya and Java are quite sad indeed. Thanks again for your post. — Ken/Eleven Shadows I’d still rather go to Java than to Morocco. If you are into Gamelan music (i.e. have a more specific travel objective than the average sand, sun & beach tourist) you should actually be in Java and show your interest and support. Technically, Java is still – somehow – safe. The biggest problem is currently some opportunistic petty criminality (from pickpocketting to car hold-ups), but that’s things that can be handled and overcome by certain personal care and vigilance (like most seasoned travellers have, anyway). Maybe, and only because it is currently absolutely unpredictable, you may want to stay clear of May & June ‘99, but also this is only speculation. Have fun
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I’d still rather go to Java than to Morocco. If you are into Gamelan music (i.e. have a more specific travel objective than the average sand, sun & beach tourist) you should actually be in Java and show your interest and support. Technically, Java is still – somehow – safe. The biggest problem is currently some opportunistic petty criminality (from pickpocketting to car hold-ups),
Well, my fear in traveling there is that I am of Chinese descent. I’ve gotten forwarded some emails from my Dad in the last day or two since I posted this stuff. We have a relative who lives in Java that I am not very close with, but his emails are scary! He keeps hearing or reading about the mistreatment of Chinese Indonesians there. Because of this information, I am really starting to hesitate in going to Java at all, and quite honestly, while I realize that Bali is beautiful and interesting, my real desire has always been to go to Java. Soooo, I don’t have to make reservations until something like March or so, but it’s making me rethink the whole trip in favor of Morocco, which also really appeals to me. — Ken/Eleven Shadows Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels: Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an art lover, I recommend to skip Kuta/Legian area and go straight to Ubud/Gianyar and Klungkung areas where you can visit not only the museums and touristic performances, but also the creaters’ atliers for instance in Pengosekan (south of Ibud) and Kamasan (village of the traditional Balinese painters), plus the Museum of Classical Balinese Paintings in Klungkung. Hope you explore the sophistication of the Indonesian people and arts, whenever you might decide to go there. Kika, thanks for your post. It seems that this trip to Indonesia keeps getting whittled down every time I try and make plans or consider going there. I want to go to Irian Jaya, but that is not safe. Then Java is rather questionable, leaving just Bali. I really want to stay off the beaten path, and although I’m confident that this is possible on the island of Bali, part of my hopes were to explore the Javanes gamelan music that I love so much. This may be a trip that will need to be postponed yet again for a better time (I’m considering going to Morocco, and have been tentatively asked if I could assist in recording an album of Moroccan musicians there!). I’m sure I’d like Bali, but it just seems like there are increasing limitations to what I can do in Indonesia. And obviously, I’m posting this opinion from a really selfish point of view, since the political situation in Irian Jaya and Java are quite sad indeed. Thanks again for your post. — Ken/Eleven Shadows
I’d still rather go to Java than to Morocco. If you are into Gamelan music (i.e. have a more specific travel objective than the average sand, sun & beach tourist) you should actually be in Java and show your interest and support. Technically, Java is still – somehow – safe. The biggest problem is currently some opportunistic petty criminality (from pickpocketting to car hold-ups), but that’s things that can be handled and overcome by certain personal care and vigilance (like most seasoned travellers have, anyway). Maybe, and only because it is currently absolutely unpredictable, you may want to stay clear of May & June ‘99, but also this is only speculation. Have fun
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Bali is probably more than safe enough but I wouldn’t do Java just for a holiday. I’d go if I had go back for business or to visit relatives but I wouldn’t risk it just for a holiday. jk
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your note was of interest to me. Having lived in java for 3 years (1952-1955) as advisor to the Indonesian Air Force, the problems with respect to the chinese population unfortunately, was very similar even then.
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As an art lover, I recommend to skip Kuta/Legian area and go straight to Ubud/Gianyar and Klungkung areas where you can visit not only the museums and touristic performances, but also the creaters’ atliers for instance in Pengosekan (south of Ibud) and Kamasan (village of the traditional Balinese painters), plus the Museum of Classical Balinese Paintings in Klungkung. Hope you explore the sophistication of the Indonesian people and arts, whenever you might decide to go there.
Kika, thanks for your post. It seems that this trip to Indonesia keeps getting whittled down every time I try and make plans or consider going there. I want to go to Irian Jaya, but that is not safe. Then Java is rather questionable, leaving just Bali. I really want to stay off the beaten path, and although I’m confident that this is possible on the island of Bali, part of my hopes were to explore the Javanes gamelan music that I love so much. This may be a trip that will need to be postponed yet again for a better time (I’m considering going to Morocco, and have been tentatively asked if I could assist in recording an album of Moroccan musicians there!). I’m sure I’d like Bali, but it just seems like there are increasing limitations to what I can do in Indonesia. And obviously, I’m posting this opinion from a really selfish point of view, since the political situation in Irian Jaya and Java are quite sad indeed. Thanks again for your post. — Ken/Eleven Shadows Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels: Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
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Dear Ken, I was recently in Indonesia this past summer, just 3 months following the riots and demonstrations. If you are planning to go to Bali and stay mainly there, you will have no problems. As far as Bali is concerned, it is "business as usual" for travellers. If I were you, I’d stay as far away from Kuta Beach as possible, unless you surf. The surf there is amazing, but beyond that, Kuta has become a very commercialized centre and is about as gaudy as Pattaya. I would go up to Ubud, and spend the majority of my time there. LP is right in that it is the culture center of Bali, and besides that, the food is excellent. In particular, I would go to Casa Luna. It is by far the BEST restaurant I have been to in Indonesia. I used to take the shuttle bus from Kuta to Ubud (1 hour, Rp10 000= USD 1) just to have lunch, and to use the internet there. If you do make it into Java, I would suggest making a beeline to Yogyakarta. When I was there (August), Solo was quite bombed out. In fact, the guest house I was staying at was just 1 block form an intersection where2 months before, over 50 cars and motorbikes had been torched in protest. There was a very palpable tension in the air, and rebuilding had just begun. I suggest Yogya because about an hour away is Borobudur and Prambanan. Borobudur is a 9th century Buddhist monument, which was restored about 10 years ago. It is breathtaking at sunrise, with Mt. Merapi (active volcanoe) in the background. If you do go, stay at The Borobudur Guesthouse in Borobudur, rather than taking a tour from Yogya, because you can never get there in time for sunrise, and the gates do not open until 6AM, after sunrise. If you stay at the guesthouse, the owners have a way of getting you in for sunrise, and they are extremely friendly. By the way, don’t be too worried about your personal safety (which is not to say you should have your guard down). I was often mistaken for being Japanese, mostly because of the perception that they are wealthy enough to travel. The other thing is that much of the animosity is directed against local Chinese, and they can pretty easily pick out a traveller, by dress etc. I would however, strongly advise against going to West Java because of the activity there, but chech the US Travel Advisory for latest updates. Have fun with your trip!
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Actually, I keep hearing from others that Bali is quite safe, but Java is not. But these people are probably not taking into consideration that I am of Chinese descent, and that is what worries me.
This past summer anyway, I met an awful lot of Indonesians of Chinese descent who had fled Java and were waiting out the troubles in Bali. They all seemed to be having fine times of it. miguel — Hit The Road! Photos, tales, and tips from around the world: http://u.nu
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Kevin, The safety situation in Java and Bali seems quite diverse in different regions, considered the newsgroups, my own experiences, and the comments from my friends in Indonesia who are Javanese, Japanese and Chinese Indonesians. As a northeastern Asian female, I’ve been exposed to two different kind of racial problems when I travel to or study in Indonesia. In touristic places, most of all in Bali, there are quite a few people incl. airport immigration officials who perceive foreigners as "rip-off" target. However, a Chinese Javanese friend of mine who now lives in Bali finds himself much more relaxed since the interracial tension is much less serious according to him. When I stayed in a Eastern Javanese city for 4 months last year, I as well as some other Japanese female students had quite often been subject to minor nuisance, being mistaken as Chinese Indonesians, but the Japanese guys hardly ever had such experiences. From recent phone calls with my Javanese and Japanese friends again in Eastern Java, I understand the interraconal and inter- religious tension is much less apparant in places other than the "hot spots" such as Jakarta, Timor or Ujung Pandang, safe enough for the Japanese female students there. As for myself, I’ve been postponing my return to Indonesia, esp. to Java, but if you are a male travelling only to Bali, maybe it’s OK because tourism in Bali is a vital source of income for the nation and the region, and therefore the safety is quite severely watched over by the society. Although dissappearance of money or personal belongings may likely happen, I minimize such risks by never bringing/carrying much. Yet I still prefer non-touristic places, even if the racial prejudice is more deep-rooted and the activity range for women are more restricted esp. in the Islamic societies, because the interpersonal relationship between locals and the foreigners is equal. This means you have a far greater chance of making good friends with the sincere locals as a person, not as a foreigner (in Bali, they call foreigners "guests"). I’ve also been often helped and treated very kindly in Java, and in Bali, too. As an art lover, I recommend to skip Kuta/Legian area and go straight to Ubud/Gianyar and Klungkung areas where you can visit not only the museums and touristic performances, but also the creaters’ atliers for instance in Pengosekan (south of Ibud) and Kamasan (village of the traditional Balinese painters), plus the Museum of Classical Balinese Paintings in Klungkung. Hope you explore the sophistication of the Indonesian people and arts, whenever you might decide to go there. Kika
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I am interested in traveling to Bali, and perhaps other parts of Indonesia during July-August of 1999. I actually have a great interest in going to Java, but am not sure of the safety, especially since I am of Chinese descent (even though I am American). I was wondering if anyone could give me any feedback on this. Personally, from what I have heard from the news and my Chinese friends (including one who’s cousin barely escaped with their life), I would not go to Indonesia if I were you. Bali is probably ok, though, unless things take a dramatic turn for the worse in the meantime.
Actually, I keep hearing from others that Bali is quite safe, but Java is not. But these people are probably not taking into consideration that I am of Chinese descent, and that is what worries me. There has been a lot of animosity aimed at ethnic Chinese there (and some of it is quite understandable, if not justifiable), and *that* is my concern. And as for Grahame, who echoed similar sentiments and suggested other parts of SE Asia, such as Laos, well, that may be a good possibility as well! I’ve traveled a reasonable amount throughout Asia in the past, and Indonesia has always been really high on the list of places to go. But every time I try and go there, something happens! Grrrrrrrr!!!!!! <g Morocco is the other place I want to go, but that’s not very close to SE Asia, now, is it?? <g Thanks for the comments! — Ken/Eleven Shadows Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels: Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
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I am interested in traveling to Bali, and perhaps other parts of Indonesia during July-August of 1999. I actually have a great interest in going to Java, but am not sure of the safety, especially since I am of Chinese descent (even though I am American). I was wondering if anyone could give me any feedback on this. As far as places to visit in Bali, what would you recommend? I have heard that the Pejeng region around Ubud hass some of Bali’s most ancient monuments and relics, and are somewhat similar to the Ellora/Ajanta caves in India (which are spectacular!). I’d be interested in other recommendations for places to visit that are beautiful, have interesting art and music, and that some very beautiful architecture as well. And again, fi someone could comment on the safety of someone of Chinese descent traveling to Java or other places in Indonesia, it would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks in advance!!! — Ken/Eleven Shadows Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels: Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
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Ken, I’d be pretty careful. I following the situation pretty closely and have a lot of contacts and I really think that there are so many amazing places in SE Asia that unless you really, really want to see Indonesia, then I’d go to e.g. Laos. Of course it could change for the better by July/Aug (then again it could get worse). I wouldn’t be making any definite plans to visit until closer to the time when the on-ground situation is better known. cheers, Grahame
I am interested in traveling to Bali, and perhaps other parts of Indonesia during July-August of 1999. I actually have a great interest in going to Java, but am not sure of the safety, especially since I am of Chinese descent (even though I am American). I was wondering if anyone could give me any feedback on this. As far as places to visit in Bali, what would you recommend? I have heard that the Pejeng region around Ubud hass some of Bali’s most ancient monuments and relics, and are somewhat similar to the Ellora/Ajanta caves in India (which are spectacular!). I’d be interested in other recommendations for places to visit that are beautiful, have interesting art and music, and that some very beautiful architecture as well. And again, fi someone could comment on the safety of someone of Chinese descent traveling to Java or other places in Indonesia, it would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks in advance!!! — Ken/Eleven Shadows Eleven Shadows * ES songs on Real Audio * Music Reviews * Travels: Peru-Ladakh-Kashmir-India-HK * Tibet * Real Audio Radio Shows http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows — Grahame Rowland
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I am interested in traveling to Bali, and perhaps other parts of Indonesia during July-August of 1999. I actually have a great interest in going to Java, but am not sure of the safety, especially since I am of Chinese descent (even though I am American). I was wondering if anyone could give me any feedback on this.
Personally, from what I have heard from the news and my Chinese friends (including one who’s cousin barely escaped with their life), I would not go to Indonesia if I were you. Bali is probably ok, though, unless things take a dramatic turn for the worse in the meantime. How about Cambodia, you can risk your life there and not be especially singled out as an ethnic Chinese? — Spehro Pefhany "The Journey is the reward" Fax:(905) 271-9838 (small micro system devt hw/sw + mfg)
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Bertie
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Ralph Livingston, who is a very sick sick individual who should be hospitalized before he hurts himself or someone else, took it upon himself to post in my name. DON’T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN YOU PERVERTED PIECE OF SHIT. GO TO YOUR DOCTOR NOW OR I WILL BE FORCED TO CALL THE AMBULANCE SERVICE WITH YOUR STRAIGHT JACKET. This perverted piece of shit found himself absolutely unable to answer the questions I have raised, so he was forced to attempt to put his own stupidity into my mouth so that he would have a target he could understand. This is the lowest of the low, Mr. LIVINGSTON. YOU HAVE GONE BEYOND THE PALE. YOU ARE NOW PERSONA NON GRATA EVERYWHERE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no secret that a gathering of TROLLS is taking place in several of the aviation groups, mostly in those shown above. Who are these people, and what is their purpose? There appears to be a clear line of separation between the TROLLS and those being TROLLED. The leader and principal instigator appears to be Rich Ahrens who has not only a TROLL in the aviation groups but also other unique areas, to include the Garrison Keeler group. Go figure. Hey, Ralphie, otherwise knows as "Everyone I See" When are you going to grow up and get a life. I feel sorry for poor deficient idiots like yourself who have proven to be incapable of any lasting interpersonal relationship and have to go out and trash newsgroups in order to get the recognition you so obviosly crave. You would rather be blasted by all of the intelligent people in the world for being a stupid and arrogant ASSHOLE than do anything constructive. Please crawl back under your rock you stupid piece of shit.
ROSWELL wrote, pretending to be someone else in the finest TROLL tradition, in an attempt to make his victims look stupid After looking at the Drivel and foul language that I posted above, perhaps I have overeacted? As I really know absolutely nothing about Roswell except what Rich Ahrens has portrayed in his endless Flame War, I am not in a position to make an educated call about anyone on Usenet. Well, except for people who are actually known to me. I am also Sorry for my continued cross posting in the footsteps of Mr. Ahrens. I don’t know what made me do it? Maybe I’m ill? Regardless, I shall try to get my act together, and act like an Adult from here on out.
ROSWELL, I would hope that some day you would begin to act like an adult, but at your age I don’t think it is ever going to happen. Please, please call a doctor and commit yourself to that mental institution. It may not be too late for you to still salvage some of a miserable and unhappy life. To the alt.disasters.aviation group, the alt.aviation.safety group, and the members of rec.aviation.misc, I AM SORRY! SORRIER than anyone could imagine, in fact, I am so utterly SORRY that no words can describe my SORRY state at this point. I will no longer cross post, or support Rich Ahrens in his private hate group efforts. Forgive me? I’m SORRY. Really SORRY.
Written by Ralph Livingston, of course, because he could not counter plain common sense and truth in any other way than to pretend he is me and publish absolute drivel. Highflyer -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet
Notice that it is even posted from his server! What an idiot this Livingston is. Who would ever believe him or put any faith in anything he had to say? Certainly noone who wasn’t as sick as he is.
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Ralph Livingston, who is a very sick sick individual who should be hospitalized before he hurts himself or someone else, took it upon himself to post in my name. DON’T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN YOU PERVERTED PIECE OF SHIT. GO TO YOUR DOCTOR NOW OR I WILL BE FORCED TO CALL THE AMBULANCE SERVICE WITH YOUR STRAIGHT JACKET. This perverted piece of shit found himself absolutely unable to answer the questions I have raised, so he was forced to attempt to put his own stupidity into my mouth so that he would have a target he could understand. This is the lowest of the low, Mr. LIVINGSTON. YOU HAVE GONE BEYOND THE PALE.
Net-cop him. Get his plug pulled. You’ll be doing us all a favor.
Response:
Real life plays into that flame war, see ya. Another threat. Good god, give the other Kooks a chance, willya?
Was that a threat? Shit, I missed it.
Response:
name, wrote You are a great instructor, by the way.
I know. Bertie
Response:
Bertie
What is a "adress" Bertie? You are a great instructor, by the way.
Highflyer -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet
Response:
—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 Alright, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it once more. Please don’t feed the trolls. Now that the Roswell and Bertie traveling road-show has come to r.a.h to be added to the list of "troubles" we’ve experienced here, I wish to remind you all that these trolls only get satisfaction if you respond to them. Now we’ve got a couple of pro-grade net-miscreants who will make a mess in r.a.h only to hear each other talk, and stir up the muck. A narrow and formalized shunning only works if you know the name or address of the shun-ee. Here we have net trolls who change both and in this case impersonate others (though they haven’t forged the headers as well as some). Shunning on the Geeters model will not work because next we’ll be debating who is or is not the shun-ee. The solution is to recognize a deliberately inflammatory posting and ignore it no matter who it is from or purports to be from. I’m surprised the Roswell and Bertie road-show caught on here. I would have thought they’d be well enough known for their activities in .misc that they’s have been ignored from the start, they weren’t and now they’ve succeeded in producing great turmoil here. Please employ filters if you can’t just ignore these troublemakers. They work to get rid of most of the twits, but please don’t try to shout-down any new provocateur who appears. It may be Bass or Zoom, or Roswell, or Bertie, or wingman150, or whitetornado or somebody else using a new name, or it may be just one more twit to add to the list. The distinction is one without a difference. Several people have said that if they use filters, the bastards have won. Let me suggest to you that if you attempt to respond to a troll, especially if you try to shout one down, *then* the bastards have won. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNhFK0kfGZS9yBKdnEQJ7KwCguHqgDneQTCVsWxVADMGjB/ppMJ4AoNWQ yKgoX3XXHJnbZaWKS9pAFvPR =R8g1 —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– — My email address is not noisy. Webpage: http://www.nku.edu/~munday PP-ASEL - Tandem Flybaby Builder - EAA-284 (Waynesville, OH) "A member shall not speak oftener than twice, without special leave, upon the same question; and not the second time, before every other, who had been silent, shall have been heard, if he choose to speak upon the subject." – Rules of the American Constitutional Convention, 1787.
Response:
This behavior is intolerable. I’m in complete agreement. They can take themselves and their wacko postings elsewhere Chasmo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chas: Actually, now that he’s revealed himself we can start to assume we know who Roswell and a couple of other incoherents are. This isn’t the first time Armadillo has attempted to disrupt a group, and I suggest we quickly institute a silent response. Tony Pucillo I can only assume, that since you did not post under your name, everything you said is untrue. It’s no secret that a gathering of TROLLS is taking place in several of the aviation groups, mostly in those shown above. Who are these people, and what is their purpose? There appears to be a clear line of separation between the TROLLS and those being TROLLED. The leader and principal instigator appears to be Rich Ahrens who has not only a TROLL in the aviation groups but also other unique areas, to include the Garrison Keeler group. Go figure. Assisting Mr. Ahrens in his principal area of endeavor, have been other notibles like Ryan Healy, Badwater Bill, Anonymous, Bertie the Bunyip(whatever that is), and others of less note. Do these people add to the Knowledge of Aviation? Do they contribute to the groups? Do they even have a life? What motivates these people? Don’t they have a hobby(besides TROLLING). As for the Trolled, we have Roswell, Zoomer, Tarver, and many others, who either answer the attacks directly, or try to ignore the carnage. Why do people have to defend themselves from virtual nobody’s, to keep their good name? This doesn’t sound like America, where most of these folks are from. What is wrong with this world, and what the Hell motivates these TROLLS? What’s wrong with you, Mr. Ahrens, and you other TROLLS? Are you suffering some kind of Common sense deficit? Don’t you people have a life? ARMAGEDDON -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet — Charles Black — Castigat ridendo mores. <Laughter succeeds where lecturing won’t. I speak only for myself unless otherwise stated. One personality is enough, thank you.
– Charles Black
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As for the Trolled, we have Roswell, Zoomer, Tarver, and many others, Bwahahahahahahaaaaa. The Kook Kabal strikes again. I will have the mazor troll’s balls on my wall before the year is out. Are you sure you want to play? John
Whose, Johnny boy. Your own, or your buddy Ralphies? Maybe both! Yes, both absolutely. Nail them up you ignorant asshole!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no secret that a gathering of TROLLS is taking place in several of the
aviation groups, mostly in those shown above. Who are these people, and
what is their purpose? There appears to be a clear line of separation between
the TROLLS and those being TROLLED. The leader and principal instigator appears
to be Rich Ahrens who has not only a TROLL in the aviation groups but also other
unique areas, to include the Garrison Keeler group. Go figure.
Hey, Ralphie, otherwise knows as "Everyone I See" When are you going to
grow up and get a life. I feel sorry for poor deficient idiots like
yourself who have proven to be incapable of any lasting interpersonal
relationship and have to go out and trash newsgroups in order to get
the recognition you so obviosly crave. You would rather be blasted
by all of the intelligent people in the world for being a stupid and
arrogant ASSHOLE than do anything constructive. Please crawl back
under your rock you stupid piece of shit.
After looking at the Drivel and foul language that I posted above, perhaps
I have overeacted? As I really know absolutely nothing about Roswell except
what Rich Ahrens has portrayed in his endless Flame War, I am not in a position
to make an educated call about anyone on Usenet. Well, except for people who
are actually known to me. I am also Sorry for my continued cross posting in the footsteps of Mr. Ahrens. I don’t know what made me do it? Maybe I’m ill?
Regardless, I shall try to get my act together, and act like an Adult from here
on out.
To the alt.disasters.aviation group, the alt.aviation.safety group,
and the members of rec.aviation.misc, I AM SORRY! SORRIER than anyone could
imagine, in fact, I am so utterly SORRY that no words can describe my SORRY
state at this point. I will no longer cross post, or support Rich Ahrens in
his private hate group efforts. Forgive me? I’m SORRY. Really SORRY.
Highflyer -**** Posted from Supernews, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.supernews.com/ – Host to the World’s Discussions & Usenet
Response:
I will have the mazor troll’s balls on my wall before the year is out. Are you sure you want to play?
Bwaaaaahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaw///// Bertie
Response:
Kinda reaffirms my belief that the lot of you are in this together. There *is* a Kook Kabal (TIAKK)
Absofuckinglutely. I have never seen anything quite as wierd as this, not even up Karl Malden