Lonely Loneliness

long introspective post (spoilers: love, loneliness, feelings of romantic (and general, overall) haplessness)

Question:

 I’ll second what Nina had to say.

  Hm. Nina’s post never showed up on deja news, so I didn’t see it. I’ll have to check my AOL account.  I’ll also add that people in your age group are notorious for making arbitrary and stupid relationship choices. I was a lot like that girl you were  crazy about.  I turned down an awful lot of wonderful guys like you for the beautiful a-holes.  It took a hellish marriage to a picture-perfect jerk to teach me what real beauty means.

  Thanks for the encouraging words, and I’m sorry you had to go through a hellish marriage. I’m trying very hard not to sound like one of those bitter I’m-a-great-guy-but-chicks-dig-dickheads-ain’t-life-a-drag people over on alt.support.shyness. I know a lot of nice guys whose romantic lives have turned out fine, and I still hold out a very small sliver of hope for myself. Good things really do come to those who wait.  Hold your head up and feel good about who you are.  You’re the only one of your friends who does not have to worry about sexually transmitted diseases.  That’s no small thing in this day and age.  The woman who finds you will be very lucky.

     That’s nice of you to say. Thank you. Sincerely, Laurie

     -kt

Response:

The way you describe the woman you fell in love with suggests that you idealise women and put them on a pedestal – she is totally beautiful, wonderfully intelligent, etc. rather than an intensely attractive but flawed and realistic human being.

  I never said she was "wonderfully intelligent" (she is, but whatever). I don’t know much from pedestals. I just liked her a lot and thought she was a great person. We were good friends for a while before I fell for her. If that’s pedestal-izing, I’m guilty. <snip All of the men I have been involved with have treated me like an equal, normal human being, they’ve talked to me about what I’m interested in and about what they enjoy, we’ve done things we enjoyed together: as far as I know, none of them have considered me ‘way out of their league’.  I would -hate- to think that -any- man considered me in such terms.

    Well, I’m genuinely sorry if you found the "way out of my league" comment offensive. I just wanted to convey that she was very attractive and more experienced in social matters than I. <snip      Thank you for the advice. Dianne x — ‘When it comes, and the opening credits roll, I nearly burst into song! I go crazy with joy and do a little dance in my seat. Then I watch with a frenzied concentration that a phone call from Jesus Christ could not break.’  - Katherine Dahlsgaard (http://www.citypaper.net/articles/071698/tv.shtml)

     -kt

Response:

<snip It is not your "desirability package" that’s slowing you down here, it’s your psyche.  All people on earth suffer rejection by the opposite sex.  It is not an eternal condemnation of your sex appeal to be rejected by a woman.

  I know– actually, I’ve never really been rejected, if you define rejection as "refusal, by a MOTAS who is not taken or in love or otherwise amorously engaged, of an offer of potential romantic involvement." I reject *myself* more often than not. Pre-emptive strikes, as it were. In fact, you are likely to be rejected just because you are living in a fantasy land and your approach that you described in your post was almost 100% sure to fail.

  Oh, I know. I wasn’t really pursuing her. I didn’t expect her to say "oh dahling I’ve always loved you now at last we can be together" or something. I was just extremely depressed over her and needed to spill my guts. She was very understanding and gentle about it.      <snip a lot of good advice      Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I’m not sure if I’m quite ready, emotionally, to try and take any of your advice yet. Maybe someday. –  Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."  – Abraham Lincoln

     -kt

Response:

Kt, Know how you feel. Been there done that. Bought the tee shirt. Want one? I’ll send you one. I’m 35 and can really relate to you on this. I don’t have any answers. I’ve read the things that people have posted to you on this. Been hearing this stuff for decades. I can’t seem to get there either. There ought to be a better way to do things in this world. NOTHING can be easy. When I catch the BASTARD who made the rules here… Well. You get my drift. Good luck. I really really hope that things turn out for you better than they have for me. -Mike (someone has to loose.)

Response:

 I’ll second what Nina had to say.  I’ll also add that people in your age group are notorious for making arbitrary and stupid relationship choices. I was a lot like that girl you were  crazy about.  I turned down an awful lot of wonderful guys like you for the beautiful a-holes.  It took a hellish marriage to a picture-perfect jerk to teach me what real beauty means.   Enjoy your youth. Develop your personal interests. Bide your time.  Cherish your virginity.  You will have an incredible gift to offer the woman who finally comes to recognize your worth. I was 29, with 2 kids and pretty high mileage before I learned to spot a diamond when I saw one.  My jewel is 6′5", half-bald, deeply in debt, with 2 demanding kids and a pain-in-the-rear ex-wife and mother.  He is also the kindest, most wonderful and appreciative man I’ve ever known.  I also find him completely sexy.  One of the things I respect about him most is that he wanted to wait until we were married before having sex.  We ended up waiting a lot longer than we expected – 4 1/2 years.  We’ve now been married 1 1/2 years and couldn’t be happier. Good things really do come to those who wait.  Hold your head up and feel good about who you are.  You’re the only one of your friends who does not have to worry about sexually transmitted diseases.  That’s no small thing in this day and age.  The woman who finds you will be very lucky. Sincerely, Laurie

Response:

Nina, Love almost always sneaks up and grabs you when you’re not looking for it.<

That’s what I was afraid of. Well. I guess that pretty much seals things for me then. -Mike

Response:

kt –    I’m just coming out of a bad depressive episode.  I share some of your symptoms, but I’m 49 and have gotten better in a lot of ways over time. The number one thing I want to tell you, which  is, I swear on the Bible, absolutely true and I say it to you because it is true and not for some kind of therapy (although obviously I’m saying it because I think it will help you) is that you are not too unattractive to have a girlfriend.  I understand that you are around 5′ 8" tall, slightly built, have a baby face, and are painfully shy, and have had no experience with women at all, but that you are maybe "average" looking, i.e. not hideously ugly and not extremely handsome. It is not your "desirability package" that’s slowing you down here, it’s your psyche.  All people on earth suffer rejection by the opposite sex.  It is not an eternal condemnation of your sex appeal to be rejected by a woman. In fact, you are likely to be rejected just because you are living in a fantasy land and your approach that you described in your post was almost 100% sure to fail.  There are ways to find a woman to date with some chance of success. Number one, find a way to meet girls in a non-threatening setting, so you can talk to them without having to be in any way romantic.  Volunteer activities and church groups are two good ones.  Number two, don’t get your hopes up until a girl acts friendly towards you.  Act "normal" and don’t push the tempo faster than one step at a time. You sound to me like a very charming, intelligent, and eccentric person.  I think you will be able to find someone who is pretty and smart enough to form a romantic relationship with.  There are attractive girls who are also shy and awkward around men. You have to Play the Game to a degree, it’s just something you have to go through in order to fall in love.  You have to risk rejection always, and so you have to get your psyche in good enough shape that it won’t destroy you to be turned down for a date, or have a woman decide to end a relationship.  Don’t worry, everyone else is in the same boat, it’s just a question of being able to keep going after a painful event. I just watched "Legends of the Fall".  The brother who the girl falls in love with, at first, is the short rather nerdy one.  I realized whiel watching this movie (which is a tragedy, don’t watch it unless you want a sad movie) that he was actually the one I liked the best, in spite of his two more charming and handsome brothers.  He was the one I admired most, although I thought at first that Brad Pitt or Aidan Quinn was more attractive because I thought that I was expected to like them better.  Oh well, I’m having trouble articulating my point.  But women have always liked me because of my brains and because I’m nice to them and fun, and I’ve been able to overcome my introversion and have a great romantic life. Also remember, a woman is a different person whom you have to treat, always, at arm’s length  to a certain degree.  You have to reject the infantile feeling that she will somehow magically incorporate into your soul and know you beyond your communication with her. Someone once told me that the secret to dating is:  "Whatever you’ve got, someone wants it".  I would say you have a lot more to offer than many people in happy relationships, since you can write clear articulate sentences and enjoy books (yes Kilgore Trout was a tipoff).  Find a woman who is shorter than you and enjoys science fiction or at least imaginative fiction. There must be 1000 women of the right age and size within geographical striking distance.  If only 1% find you attractive, that still leaves 10 good prospects.  And you only need one. Also, I suggest you read "Feeling Good" by David Burns.  This comes across like a silly self-help book, but unlike most of them he really has a good point to make. Also, this is the kind of problem that a good therapist can actually help with.  Find a psychologist who you really like, they are cheaper than MD’s. –  Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."  – Abraham Lincoln

Response:

You say:  Actually, joking aside, I don’t think I’m hideous. No obvious asysmetries, no long jagged scars or birthmarks, no inappropriate bulging or discoloration. I’ve seen much more objectionable guys with girlfriends and wives and 2.5 happy kids. My obviously unattractive qualities, OTOH, are: I’m on the short side of average height (5′8" with shoes on) and slightly built, with a baby face that makes me look considerably younger than I am. I’ve tried to take care of that last one lately by growing a beard, and I think it’s helped a little, although I can’t be sure. (I ordered a beer with dinner on New Year’s Eve and didn’t get carded, although the waiter looked hassled and probably just didn’t want to bother.)

and then later:  None of this bothered me much until I fell extremely hard for the aforementioned female friend, a girl who was way out of my league in terms of attractiveness (so beautiful it *hurt* just to look at her), social skills, and romantic experience. She also happened to be dating my best

I would just like to comment that in my opinion your attitude towards women and dating likely has a lot more to do with your situation than your appearance.  The fact that you -think- your appearance is the main reason you haven’t been able to find dates or a girlfriend is a major give-away in and of itself. The way you describe the woman you fell in love with suggests that you idealise women and put them on a pedestal – she is totally beautiful, wonderfully intelligent, etc. rather than an intensely attractive but flawed and realistic human being. Speaking as a woman who does have relationships with men, I can say that your height would not influence me in the slightest, nor would your physique.  I have dated men over six foot tall and men only a few inches taller than my five-foot-nothing self.  I’ve dated overweight men and men who would blow away in a high wind.  I’ve dated men with chest hair and men with smooth skins, men with beards and clean-shaven men. You get the idea.  All of the men I have been involved with have treated me like an equal, normal human being, they’ve talked to me about what I’m interested in and about what they enjoy, we’ve done things we enjoyed together: as far as I know, none of them have considered me ‘way out of their league’.  I would -hate- to think that -any- man considered me in such terms. We are just people getting along with each other and not judging each other on the basis of looks. In my opinion, which is worth as much as you’re paying for it, you need to stop focusing so much on appearances and more on seeing yourself as a three-dimensional person with interests and values.  And also on seeing woman in three-dimensional terms, as people with flaws and preoccupations. Dianne x — ‘When it comes, and the opening credits roll, I nearly burst into song! I go crazy with joy and do a little dance in my seat. Then I watch with a frenzied concentration that a phone call from Jesus Christ could not break.’  - Katherine Dahlsgaard (http://www.citypaper.net/articles/071698/tv.shtml)

Response:

     Thanks again to everyone who responded to my first post. You’ve made delurking a painless experience.   I guess I should probably try to explain why I’m here. The primary reason, I think, is my loneliness, and the resultant feelings of inferiority and inadequacy. I’m 22 and have never had sex, never kissed, never even held hands. Never so much as asked a girl out. Never had any even remotely romantic experiences to speak of, unless you count telling a female friend (in e-mail) that I was desperately in love with her, and having her respond that she didn’t share my feelings, but I was a swell guy, really, and she valued my friendship, and so on.      I’m tempted to do one of those compliment-fishing things where you post your picture on the web and ask "How ugly am I?" and everyone responds, "Why, you’re cute as a bug’s ear" as they look at your repulsive mug and try to keep their lunch down. But I don’t think I’m quite at that stage yet.   Actually, joking aside, I don’t think I’m hideous. No obvious asysmetries, no long jagged scars or birthmarks, no inappropriate bulging or discoloration. I’ve seen much more objectionable guys with girlfriends and wives and 2.5 happy kids. My obviously unattractive qualities, OTOH, are: I’m on the short side of average height (5′8" with shoes on) and slightly built, with a baby face that makes me look considerably younger than I am. I’ve tried to take care of that last one lately by growing a beard, and I think it’s helped a little, although I can’t be sure. (I ordered a beer with dinner on New Year’s Eve and didn’t get carded, although the waiter looked hassled and probably just didn’t want to bother.)   I’ve noticed, though, that my peers have always thought that my having any sort of romantic life at all was a wildly improbable and hilarious concept. (People tend to ask me, "You don’t have a girlfriend, do you?" rather than "Do you have a girlfriend?") It’s hard to provide concrete examples of this; it’s more of a general *feel*. But there have been several times when I’ve mentioned that I found someone attractive (a TV actress, someone in a class, a waitress at a restaurant) and my friends have expressed shock that I would think such a thing. People joke around with me about being a "ladies’ man" in such a way as to indicate that they know exactly the opposite is true. If someone tells a risque joke, or a description of last night’s debauch gets a little raunchy, people feel the need to apologize to me, for some reason. It’s as if I’m *asexual*, or something.   My shyness might have something to do with it. I’ve always been very quiet and lonerish, and in school I really didn’t go for what most folks consider to be the desiderata of college life: drinking, smoking, drugs, partying, etc. That, combined with my youthful appearance, must have made me look like the naive innocent straight-arrow from central casting, which might have had something to do with the presumtion of asexuality. Still, though, I can’t help but think that people felt that way because of my unattractiveness.   None of this bothered me much until I fell extremely hard for the aforementioned female friend, a girl who was way out of my league in terms of attractiveness (so beautiful it *hurt* just to look at her), social skills, and romantic experience. She also happened to be dating my best friend/roommate, which brought to the surface feelings of inferiority and inadequacy which I could have done without, thanks a lot anyway. For a long time I was too shy to tell her how I felt, and I hung around with the two of them as a third-wheel good-buddy sort of thing, which meant that I was, as third wheels tend to be, ignored a lot, and exposed to the mildly lovey-dovey aspects of their relationship (lots of snuggling, doe-eyed stares, etc.), and that exposure has left psychic wounds that are still open and festering and none too pleasant. (Wow, what a run-on.)   I guess the upshot of all this is that I still think about her constantly, and feel pretty lousy about myself because I’m apparently not worthy of her or any other female.   I think I’ll stop now. There’s a lot more, but I’ll save it for later. Thanks for reading this far. I’m not sure what kind of responses I’m looking for, or even if I’m looking for responses at all. It just feels kind of good to say that stuff.      -kt

Response:

Filed under: Loneliness

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