Lonely Loneliness

lonley and hurt

Question:

Sigh, it really hurts me to hear stories like these.  Truely tragic indeed.  That is why I am convinced that hetrosexual union is destructive and the power of male unity (solidarity) triumphs above all.  That is where I find my loyalty, love, respect, protection, comfort, healing and bonding.

Response:

In the last two "good" relationships I’ve had, I invested my mind, body, heart and soul in it and twice, it crashed.  After the last one, I decided never to invest my all in one person.  I know it may sound cruel, but I feel that if you give your all to the person you love, where will leaves you when that person leaves you? In a crumple mess on the floor.  So I, myself, decided to invest in the one person that really know what I want…ME!!!  That’s right!! You’ve got to start loving yourself enough to be strong again. I feel that f you really can’t love yourself, who else is going love you?  Why not sit down one night and think about what YOU liked about yourself, write them down somewhere and whenever you feel low, look at the lst of your favorite things and, as a rap song goes, dowhatyoulike!!!  Be strong, man!! Remember, you still have your children who loves you very much. Chance2

Response:

Chance2 said…… >You’ve got to start  loving yourself enough to be strong again. I feel that f

you really can’t love yourself, who else is going love you?  Why not sit down one  night and think about what YOU liked about yourself, write them down somewhere and whenever you feel low, look at the lst of your favorite  things and, as a rap song goes, dowhatyoulike!!!  Be strong, man!!    Remember, you still have your children who loves you very much. <>>><><<>>> Thank You,  could not have said it better myself. =o)  jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chauncey Greer, Jr. wrote: > In the last two "good" relationships I’ve had, I invested my mind, body, > heart and soul in it and twice, it crashed.  After the last one, I > decided never to invest my all in one person.  I know it may sound > cruel, but I feel that if you give your all to the person you love, > where will leaves you when that person leaves you? In a crumple mess on > the floor.  So I, myself, decided to invest in the one person that > really know what I want…ME!!!  That’s right!! You’ve got to start > loving yourself enough to be strong again. I feel that f you really > can’t love yourself, who else is going love you?  Why not sit down one > night and think about what YOU liked about yourself, write them down > somewhere and whenever you feel low, look at the lst of your favorite > things and, as a rap song goes, dowhatyoulike!!!  Be strong, man!! > Remember, you still have your children who loves you very much. > Chance2

     As one who would never truly give my heart, my body, and most definitely not my mind or soul,  I’ll tell you that you’re right.  Don’t do it and you won’t get hurt.  I’ll also tell you that you won’t ever have a relationship worth worrying about keeping, either.     The choices are yours.  J —         "Rivers belong where they can ramble             Eagles belong where they can fly               I’ve got to be where my spirit can run free                   Gotta find my corner of the sky."

Response:

Hi LadyJ3 <Lad…@pop3.concentric.net>  and all lurkers on alt.support.loneliness ! On 30 May 1998 20:36:59 EDT, You wrote: >     As one who would never truly give my heart, my body, and most >definitely not my mind or soul,  I’ll tell you that you’re right.  Don’t do >it and you won’t get hurt.  I’ll also tell you that you won’t ever have a >relationship worth worrying about keeping, either. >    The choices are yours.  J

LadyJ … I never really stopped lurking here and always found your warmhearted, encouraging messages. You are here to give to everyone who feels he/she might need it – I admire you for this effort you take.   While reading further I found your story about the child you are going to lose now … I really hope you both can stay in touch …   In the meantime some of us seemed to forget that you are a real person, who needs and deserves a big warm gentle {{{ HUG }}} – just here and now ! Good Luck, continue with your caring, we all care about you Walter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -alien wrote: > Hi LadyJ3 <Lad…@pop3.concentric.net>  and all lurkers on > alt.support.loneliness ! On 30 May 1998 20:36:59 EDT, You wrote: > >     As one who would never truly give my heart, my body, and most > >definitely not my mind or soul,  I’ll tell you that you’re right.  Don’t do > >it and you won’t get hurt.  I’ll also tell you that you won’t ever have a > >relationship worth worrying about keeping, either. > >    The choices are yours.  J > LadyJ … I never really stopped lurking here and always found your > warmhearted, encouraging messages. You are here to give to everyone who > feels he/she might need it – I admire you for this effort you take. >   While reading further I found your story about the child you are going > to lose now … I really hope you both can stay in touch … >   In the meantime some of us seemed to forget that you are a real > person, who needs and deserves a big warm gentle {{{ HUG }}} – just here > and now ! > Good Luck, continue with your caring, > we all care about you > Walter

  Thank you, darlin’.  <big smile>  I know that I am well cared for here, but hugs are truly always welcome.  I appreciate your taking the time to send one. The Child and I have spoken on the phone and she is very excited and having a good time.  She has already started calling her step-father, "Dad" and I am told he is about bustin’ his shirt over it.  <smile>  He said he hopes the new baby is a boy as they "already have a girl".  She has her dream come true…Mommy, Daddy,  and a baby brother or sister on the way.     I will not deny that there is an extremely large empty place in my life, but I do hold to the words Teresa gave me.  I gave her "roots and wings." Remembering that and all the caring I have received here is much help.     I would like to "use your nickle" for a moment, Walter, to let those of you who have been in my mailbox and here, comforting me, know how very grateful I am.  I would also like you to know that Michael told me he would be waiting when I came home from taking her to the airport.  He was.  For hours, he mailed back and forth with me.  Enduring my tears and holding me as best he could.  I knew it cost him pain to do that and I begged him to rest and told him I would be fine, but he would not.  He stayed until The Child called me from the airport and we knew she was safe.  And stayed, still, until I promised him I would turn this off and rest, myself.  He ever belittles himself and yet his caring of us, through his own pain, is paramount.  I wish to honor him by sharing this with you.     Thank you, Walter, for the hug and the caring, and the opportunity do this…..Hugs and smiles…..J —         "Rivers belong where they can ramble             Eagles belong where they can fly               I’ve got to be where my spirit can run free                   Gotta find my corner of the sky."

Response:

  My dear, sweet LadyJ,   I truly do not have the words, for they have gone, to make   room for the tears. You have honored me, yet again, simply   by speaking my name… You step out from behind your own   pain, to say such kind, sweet, humbling words, about things   I did out of selfishness, for my own peace of mind…   Your generous, gracious, giving nature, never ceases to   amaze me, although I should know by now, that you can do   no other, than to give from your beautiful heart…   Thank you, sincerely, from the bottom of this rag, I call my heart…   (you knew you would see that line again, didn’t you?… grin)                                 warm, tearful hugs,                                 Michael   "…Sometimes when we touch,       the honesty’s too much,       and I have to close my eyes       and hide…"                  Dan Hill In article <3752DFE4.1DCC8…@pop3.concentric.net>, LadyJ3 <Lad…@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:

     my friend Walter wrote: >> LadyJ … I never really stopped lurking here and always found your >> warmhearted, encouraging messages. You are here to give to everyone who >> feels he/she might need it – I admire you for this effort you take. >>   While reading further I found your story about the child you are going >> to lose now … I really hope you both can stay in touch … >>   In the meantime some of us seemed to forget that you are a real >> person, who needs and deserves a big warm gentle {{{ HUG }}} – just here >> and now ! >> Good Luck, continue with your caring, >> we all care about you >> Walter

    The sweet LadyJ wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  Thank you, darlin’.  <big smile>  I know that I am well cared for here, but >hugs are truly always welcome.  I appreciate your taking the time to send one. >The Child and I have spoken on the phone and she is very excited and having a >good time.  She has already started calling her step-father, "Dad" and I am > told he is about bustin’ his shirt over it.  <smile>  He said he hopes the new baby >is a boy as they "already have a girl".  She has her dream come true…Mommy, >Daddy,  and a baby brother or sister on the way. >    I will not deny that there is an extremely large empty place in my life, > but I do hold to the words Teresa gave me.  I gave her "roots and wings." >Remembering that and all the caring I have received here is much help. >    I would like to "use your nickle" for a moment, Walter, to let those of you >who have been in my mailbox and here, comforting me, know how very grateful I >am.  I would also like you to know that Michael told me he would be waiting > when I came home from taking her to the airport.  He was.  For hours, he mailed back >and forth with me.  Enduring my tears and holding me as best he could.  I knew >it cost him pain to do that and I begged him to rest and told him I would be >fine, but he would not.  He stayed until The Child called me from the airport >and we knew she was safe.  And stayed, still, until I promised him I would turn >this off and rest, myself.  He ever belittles himself and yet his caring of us, >through his own pain, is paramount.  I wish to honor him by sharing this with >you. >    Thank you, Walter, for the hug and the caring, and the opportunity do >this…..Hugs and smiles…..J

Response:

Yes, I do see your point, LadyJ, and I’m sorry if I come across as hotheaded and bitter. But there a few things I’d like to respond to: >    But, if you both had been working at the relationship and if she had been >happy in the relationship, she wouldn’t have looked elsewhere for her >happiness.  You may not have recognized there was a problem.  If you didn’t it >is either because she was a consummate actress and kept it hidden or because you >weren’t observant enough. >    Just because you didn’t or can’t see that part of the fault was yours, >doesn’t mean it wasn’t.

I believe the turning point came late last year, when we were told that it would be very difficult for us to have children. My wife had wanted almost nothing else for more than two years. The news must have been devastating for her, but she put on a very brave face which I couldn’t seem to get around. Also, she wanted to pursure a career as a photographer, not an easy thing to do. When we moved to the UK two years ago, we made a joint decision that I would work full-time to support us both while she did that. I don’t resent this, but her career has so far failed to materialise, and she had a lot of time on her hands. To fill some of it, she took a volunteer job at a museum in town, met the other guy, connected with him as a friend, poured out her unhappiness to him. He listened and… well, you can guess the rest. >    When you’re trying to save a relationship, that takes a whole lot of >effort.  You say she made no attempt at working things out. She must have wanted >to try or she wouldn’t have suggested you go to Relate. You went there with the >attitude that there "wasn’t much point".  If she didn’t think there was a point, >she wouldn’t have suggested it.

She told me – and the counsellor- several times that she wanted to use the counselling to find out what had gone wrong between us, not to see if there was a way we could patch things up. The counsellor seemed a bit uncomfortable with this, and started to dig a little deeper. That was when my wife broke off counselling, while I kept going for several weeks. In fact, she told me on the day that she came back that her first condition was no more counselling. >    She came back to you!  She told you she wanted a fresh start.  What did you >do?  You "flew off to Sidney for a few weeks".  One hell of a way to work things >out.  I know you have given yourself good reasons for your actions. Reasons >that obviously, you accept.  But, do try to see how it must have looked from her >point of view.

My trip home was planned for six weeks in advance, before she dedided she wanted to come back. My wife knew perfectly well that I was going, and in fact encouraged me to do so, saying that we probably needed some time apart. When I was in Australia I made a point of calling her or sending her a fax every couple of days, telling her what I was doing, and that I still loved her. I cut my trip short by three days so that I could get back on Valentine’s Day. >    She wants counseling, you don’t see the point.  You "shouted" at her. You >*told* her she wrong.  You think she’s "gone off the rails".  You left when she >wanted a "fresh start".  Where did you leave her to go?  I’ll tell you where. >Away!  Away from one who would not listen, would not discuss, ran away, would >not try.  You say she won’t listen to reason.  Who’s *reason*?  Not that of both >of you, together.  *Your* reason.

What bothers me is that she insists on making all the rules herself, and doesn’t try to include me in her reasoning, beyond saying "I have to do what feels right for me." While that is fair enough – it’s the same for everyone – I don’t see how that helps to rebuild a marriage. >    Less than a year ago, when she was clinging to you and telling you how much >she loved and needed you, did you reassure her that you were happy that she >loved and needed you?  Did you tell her in return that you loved and needed her? >Or did you give her a quick hug and go to sleep?  If both of you weren’t showing >each other daily in and out of bed, that you needed and loved each other, then >you know a part of the reason the relationship failed.

In fact I did say those things back to her, both in bed and out. I used to call her from work at least once a day, sometimes for practical reasons, but more often just to tell her that I loved her. The truth is I think she started to feel overwhelmed, that I loved her too much, if that’s possible, that I didn’t have more of a life of my own. >    You accuse her of "salving her own conscience and guilt and pretending it is >all your fault."  Are you not doing the same?

Yes, I suppose I am. And I have said things to my wife that I regret, and I have told her so. It’s not that I never told her I was sorry. I feel that I must have slighted her in some way. I have asked more than once, but she can’t seem to tell me. Thoughtfully – Matthew

Response:

What a terrible thing to be going through. It sounds as though your wife has some things she has to work through on her own, even at the cost of your pain. I wonder if it has something to do with her marrying and becoming a mother so young. It sounds as though she probably went straight from living with her parents as a daughter to living with you as a wife and became a mother pretty soon after that. She may really be feeling that she missed out on her later teen years, and that she hasn’t had a chance to experience being on her own. I had a friend who married at 17 and had a baby within a year. She was a devoted wife and mother for years. When she was in her early 30’s, she went "wild." She would sneak out of the house after her husband had gone to sleep and spend half the night in bars; she even started to do illegal drugs. I can’t even tell you half the stuff – her husband didn’t even know about most of it, although he knew something was wrong. This went on, at various levels, for about two years, and then she went back to her previous way of life. It was as though she had to get this out of her system. Now she’s forty, and she and her husband are closer than ever. I don’t know if this is what your wife is going through, but it could be. Maybe it can be an opportunity for you to experience being alone, too. Right now, it’s painful, but I believe you can grow through the experience. Sorry for such a long message. Don’t give up. Teresa

Response:

Yes, Matthew, I can see that there is even more to your story.  There always is.  Your explanations have put it in a clearer light.     One thing that does stand out to me and might be something you would think about is,  why she was so able to speak her thoughts to this other man, but not to you.  I can’t tell you that.  There has to be a reason, why she would not or could not speak to you about this before it reached critical point.  It is difficult to speak your heart when it is troubled, but especially so, if you feel that one who should care cannot understand or cannot listen.  And when you try, and nothing changes, or you face resentment and anger, you stop trying. I’m not saying that you were like that for her to try to speak to, but just as an example of why some people stop trying and then the breakup comes as a surprise to the other.     I’m sure the news that she could not have children *was* devestating.  Not, "must be".  I know about putting on "brave faces".  And, I know about how difficult it might be for someone to "get around" it.  I also know that one can, if he wishes to enough.  If he cares enough to.  I think that it might be difficult for you to understand how someone can say, "Don’t worry about it.  I can deal with it."  And yet, wish that you would worry about it enough to help. It’s not reasonable or logical, but *is*.  That you were unable to "get around" her brave front, might very well have caused resentment in her.  Again, not reasonable, but the way people are at times.     I find difficulty that your wife would suggest counseling and go, only to find out "what went wrong", if she had no desire to mend it.  The actions and the words do not fit.  This appears, from what you have been saying, to be a common trait with her.  Her actions and her words do not mean the same thing. That, alone, must keep you in turmoil, trying to figure which is the true way she feels.  As her words say, or her actions show.     I’m sorry, Matthew.  I do not think I gave enough consideration to your emotional state.  It is truly difficult to be trying to figure out your wife’s state of mind, when you are hurting and resentful.     I do think that you need to insist with her that the "rules" need to be set by both of you and that you need to do what is right for both of you.  Not just for her.     It seems from my point of view, that both of you are not truly listening to each other.  Only wating ’till one stops talking, so the other can start.  I may be wrong, but that is how it sounds.  In cases like that, if the two can agree to write to each other, their feelings, hopes, reasons, etc., it does make a difference.  But, you have to agree to only *write* for a period of time and not discuss verbally, because when they do, no one listens again.  If you could get her to agree to do this, you pick a topic that you can agree on to begin. Something like, "What I think went wrong"  or "How I felt about our marriage two years ago, compared to now."  Pick your topic, the "conversation" evolves from there.     You will be in my thoughts, Matthew.  Hugs, J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Matthew Frater wrote: > Yes, I do see your point, LadyJ, and I’m sorry if I come across as hotheaded > and bitter. But there a few things I’d like to respond to: > I believe the turning point came late last year, when we were told that it > would be very difficult for us to have children. My wife had wanted almost > nothing else for more than two years. The news must have been devastating > for her, but she put on a very brave face which I couldn’t seem to get > around. > Also, she wanted to pursure a career as a photographer, not an easy thing to > do. When we moved to the UK two years ago, we made a joint decision that I > would work full-time to support us both while she did that. I don’t resent > this, but her career has so far failed to materialise, and she had a lot of > time on her hands. To fill some of it, she took a volunteer job at a museum > in town, met the other guy, connected with him as a friend, poured out her > unhappiness to him. He listened and… well, you can guess the rest. > She told me – and the counsellor- several times that she wanted to use the > counselling to find out what had gone wrong between us, not to see if there > was a way we could patch things up. The counsellor seemed a bit > uncomfortable with this, and started to dig a little deeper. That was when > my wife broke off counselling, while I kept going for several weeks. In > fact, she told me on the day that she came back that her first condition was > no more counselling. > My trip home was planned for six weeks in advance, before she dedided she > wanted to come back. My wife knew perfectly well that I was going, and in > fact encouraged me to do so, saying that we probably needed some time apart. > When I was in Australia I made a point of calling her or sending her a fax > every couple of days, telling her what I was doing, and that I still loved > her. I cut my trip short by three days so that I could get back on > Valentine’s Day. > What bothers me is that she insists on making all the rules herself, and > doesn’t try to include me in her reasoning, beyond saying "I have to do what > feels right for me." While that is fair enough – it’s the same for > everyone – I don’t see how that helps to rebuild a marriage. > In fact I did say those things back to her, both in bed and out. I used to > call her from work at least once a day, sometimes for practical reasons, but > more often just to tell her that I loved her. The truth is I think she > started to feel overwhelmed, that I loved her too much, if that’s possible, > that I didn’t have more of a life of my own. > Yes, I suppose I am. And I have said things to my wife that I regret, and I > have told her so. It’s not that I never told her I was sorry. I feel that I > must have slighted her in some way. I have asked more than once, but she > can’t seem to tell me. > Thoughtfully – > Matthew

–  May I Always Live           Where The Sky Is Open             Fences Are Not,               And The Spirit Walks.                            A Sioux Perspective

Response:

Dear M. – I don’t know if I can help, but I can tell you you’re not the only one. I’m in almost exactly the same situation as you – the only difference is that I’m a few years younger and there are no children. I too was devoted to my wife; in fact I moved to the UK from Australia to be with her, and it seemed to me that we were mostly happy for the eight years we have been together. She was my everything. Then, last November (incidentally, on the same day that we signed the contract on a new house in Bath), she announced that she didn’t love me any more, and that she was leaving me for someone else. No discussion, no real attempt at working things out… completely arbitrary. Sound familiar? She suggested that we go to Relate, which we did, although I couldn’t really see the point, as her position was that she was leaving me regardless. Anyway, since then, she did leave (briefly – she was back within a week), then told me she wanted a fresh start. After cautiously agreeing, I flew home to Sydney for a few weeks, to spend time with my family and get my head sorted out. Since then, she’s been unable to commit to me properly, or say what she wants… She may be trying to reconcile, but if she is it’s all in her own head, and she’s not involving me at all. She refuses to go back to Relate – she says it’s because the counselling wasn’t really doing anything for her, also that I got very angry in one session and wound up shouting at her, something I’d never done before, ever, but I suspect that the counsellor was just getting a bit too close to the bone for my liking. As a result of all this, I’m depressed and angry as hell. I went on Prozac for a while, which I must say did help me to calm down, but I still don’t know what to do with myself. Like you, I always encouraged my wife to have her own interests. Like you, I’m left completely in the dark when it comes to what my wife is thinking. And like you, I hardly recognise this woman who less than a year ago would cling to me in bed and tell me how much she loved and needed me. What the hell does it? I sure don’t know. All I do know is that you can’t blame yourself. If you do that, you’re lost. Like my wife, it sounds like yours simply went off the rails. I imagine she won’t listen to reason, gets very angry if you try to tell her she’s wrong, has basically switched off lines of communication between you. The hell of it is, it didn’t happen by accident. She did it deliberately, because she wanted to. All I can think is that your wife got scared. She woke up one day and asked herself, "Why am I doing this?", and couldn’t find an answer. She may change her mind. She may not. Whichever, you can’t afford to depend on her doing so. I do know this: It does get better. I know that sounds impossible, but it’s true. It does get better. My wife also told me it’s not the end of the world. When she says that to you, she may think she’s being compassionate, but she’s actually trying to salve her own conscience and guilt, and pretend to herself and to you that this mess is your fault. Just remember, she’s the one who screwed up. Not you. Anything you do from now on, do it for yourself. Not for her. Anyway, M., I’ll be your friend if you like, because you sound like a decent bloke, and because I know exactly where you’re coming from. Feel free to e-mail me back anytime. Even if it’s late at night I’ll most likely still be up (I don’t seem to get much sleep these days, wonder why? Ha ha.) I don’t know where you are in UK, but if you’re in the Southwest, let me know and I’ll drag you out for a pint or ten, if you’d like. Take good care – Matthew Frater (mfra…@globalnet.co.uk) u…@uptown.simplyonline.co.uk wrote in message

<6k6t9h$e0…@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->9 weeks ago my wife sat my children and myself down and announced "I don

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