When will I forgive my own sins?

Question:

Mike, Wow, for me, these were powerful words, and affected me very much……. You see, it’s hard for me to imagine this burden ever going completely away. Something about that doesn’t seem quite right. So, I like your viewpoint: if it can’t go away, maybe I could simply accept some help carrying it. Thanks, jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You torture yourself by refusing reconciliation. Reconciliation is a sacrament which we are encouraged to partake. You torture yourself by not taking communion. You deny Our Lord as well as yourself. Remember the story in the Gospels of Jesus and the adulteress. "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone…" To be in communion with God is part of what has brought me this far. I don’t know if I could have handled the breakup of my marriage without God. Remember too there is a great propensity for evil in the world. Sometimes our vision is blurred. Pray for healing and for guidance. I am sure Our Lord will guide you to a place of healing. You are carrying your cross alone and the burden is heavy. Let us help you carry your burden. Let God help carry the burden. Blame is no longer the issue. Healing is the issue. We are all weak. We all fail to measure up and we all need to pick ourselves up and try again. I will remember to add you in my prayers… Your brother in Christ, Mike It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

You know why I take my kids to sunday school, but not to church? I do pray, I pray to God every day. And, I talk about God to my kids all the time. He’s in my life every minute. But, I don’t go to church, because every time I do, it is inevitable at some point in the service that the tears start welling up, and I have a hard time choking them back, and I feel like everyone is looking at me, and my kids get scared. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You torture yourself by refusing reconciliation. Reconciliation is a sacrament which we are encouraged to partake. You torture yourself by not taking communion. You deny Our Lord as well as yourself. Remember the story in the Gospels of Jesus and the adulteress. "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone…" To be in communion with God is part of what has brought me this far. I don’t know if I could have handled the breakup of my marriage without God. Remember too there is a great propensity for evil in the world. Sometimes our vision is blurred. Pray for healing and for guidance. I am sure Our Lord will guide you to a place of healing. You are carrying your cross alone and the burden is heavy. Let us help you carry your burden. Let God help carry the burden. Blame is no longer the issue. Healing is the issue. We are all weak. We all fail to measure up and we all need to pick ourselves up and try again. I will remember to add you in my prayers… Your brother in Christ, Mike It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

Jen, We all make mistakes in life, this is what maks us human. It seems as you have said others in your life have forgiven you, and with your daughters beautiful poem.essay about why she loves you, I think that it would might be a good time to sit back, review and say maybe just maybe say to yourself, If my daughter feels this way there MUST be a reason. I think You’ll find that beatting yourself up about it isn’t doing anyone any good. You have been through enough. It’s time to just let go and well Keep your daughters words in your heart and head.

I know all of this instinctively. And, it’s what I’ve taught my daughters, and how I approach my friends. I’m always the first to forgive others. Just have to figure out why I don’t give myself the same treatment. Working on that…. jen

Response:

Debbie, thank you for this post. While your words started a torrent of tears last night, it was what I needed. And, I do know I am prone to grapple with the martydom thing….. it’s deeply ingrained in me. Makes it specially difficult, because I also have a really selfish side, too. These sides are constantly competing. I have long realized that I played the martyr for too long in my marriage, and that something did just …. snap…. one day, and all the pent-up selfishness came out at once. I do think I’ve made great strides learning how to balance the two sides, but I guess I’m not quite there yet. jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t have all the answers, but I wish I did. However, I will share with you my thoughts. I am a converted Catholic. Grew up Protestant and became a Catholic when I was 21 years old…going against the flow of all my friends the same age rapidly leaving the Church. In the catacuman (sp?) classes I took, we discussed sin. I had difficulty accepting some teachings of the church and couldn’t deal with some ideas of sin that I did not believe were sins at all. The priest teaching my class (and priests are people too, remember) said that by the time we are adults we have fairly well been taught what is right and what is wrong (for the most part.) If we do something that we know deep in our hearts is wrong, then we are "sinning" of some sort. We can justify it all we want, make a million excuses and lie about it until the cows come home, but deep inside we know it is wrong. However, if we truly believe deep in our soul that something is right, then we are not sinning. There is a big issue of honesty with one’s self. Some people cannot do that. They are so used to lying to everyone that they have turned into compulsive liars to themselves as well. However, I do not believe this is true in your case. God has already forgiven you. That is what He does. He has blessed you with this life, and has not made it so easy that you take too much for granted. He has been especially loving towards you by allowing you to experience the pure and innocent love of a child. This child, who models herself after two people she truly loves, her mom and her dad, is full of thoughts and feelings. She sees how you allow yourself to be treated…not just by others, but by yourself. She would love to see you take that step that admits you are simply a human trying to live your life the best you can. Do you want to send her a message that she can never make a mistake and then expect forgiveness? Oh, we already know the answer to that question. But until you let go of your self-inflicted guilt, that is exactly what the message is you are sending to her, and to everyone else in your life. Can you imagine loving someone who is so set on martyrdom and perfection? Can anyone ever live up to such high standards? I know I am about to cross over the line here, but I wanted to help you see this story from the outside. I say, yes, cry. Feel terrible about what you have done. That is all the way it should be if you have any conscience at all. But now it is in the past. THE PAST. You are not appreciating the blessing of the life you have in THE PRESENT and especially, the wonders and happiness that await you in THE FUTURE until you let it all slip away. I have a motto: If it is beyond my control, let it go, learn, and move on. And baby, that is so true for you. Stay away from any other relationships for a while until you feel pretty darn good about yourself. It will happen if you give it a chance. Write in a journal. Go to a therapist. Read a million books about guilt and self-esteem. And then when it is right, someone marvelous may or may not come along. But it will only be the extra stuff to enhance what is already a pretty terrific life by that point. If you want to pay a price, send me a nickel. (:-) I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids

Response:

I know how you feel but you have to believe the tears will end. Most masses I attend I am on the verge of tears. I am sad for the loss of my marriage, the loss of my future, the pain my kids must endure, the changes in my life, the loneliness I must face, the uncertainty of my future but through all of that the presence of Christ in the Eucharist helps sustain me and gives me the strength to go on. Lots of days I even try to attend daily Mass just to get that spiritual boost to get me through the day. There is no crime in crying in church. Just shows someone is having an honest dialogue with their Creator. I will continue to pray for you and if you have the chance remember me in your prayers. We can share each others burden and help to heal each others pain. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know why I take my kids to sunday school, but not to church? I do pray, I pray to God every day. And, I talk about God to my kids all the time. He’s in my life every minute. But, I don’t go to church, because every time I do, it is inevitable at some point in the service that the tears start welling up, and I have a hard time choking them back, and I feel like everyone is looking at me, and my kids get scared.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – jen, You were my first friend here many years ago when my separation had just become official and divorce was still 18 months away. You have been a great sounding board (and comfort) for me over all that time and I have watched you give great adivce to others. More than that, I have seen you take great pains to discuss complex issues with great fairness and thoroughness. Now, I see you giving yourself less than you give others. What you fail to mention here is that you didn’t dictate a custody solution, you asked the court to investigate and recommend. When they examined the situation and recommended supervised visitation at most for your then stbx, you actually fought for more visitation on his behalf, while helping to draft the terms by which he might regain more equal footing and at the same time protect your children. While I do not condone how you chose to effect your exit from the marriage, clearly there was more going on that your own misbehavior.

Joel, that’s the irony. You know me and the entire situation to understand this, and would know that I do not say this with even a hint of spitefulness, but I do ponder how my ex moved on, and forgave his own self, and I’m still not quite there. I’ve been thinking today that it’s because the past three years have been all about his salvation. That I have been a catalyst to help him change for the better, emotionally, spiritually, and in every day practice. (Note, I say "catalyst," because he deserves recognition for his own hard work). But, from my end, it was a monumental, taxing effort. Perhaps I didn’t have much left over for my own salvation. I’m thinking I’m just drained…. fried…. I have been tap-dancing for three years, and now the water is clear sailing, and I’m ready for a rest, to regroup, and hopefully come back stronger. Just as clearly, when the chips were down, you acted in a selfless manner for the good of everyone, not just yourself. I believe that whatever insecure feelings you have and have had were present long before your action sin your marriage. You have made progress in leaving someof them behind and you will continue to do so, even if there is backsliding along the way.

This ticked me off last night when I read it …. so there!…. but then, after thinking about it some more today, and asking myself why it would tick me off, well, Joel, I think you’re right. So there! This is something I need to work on. Many of us have urged you to heal your relationship with yourself before worrying so much about a possible partner.

Hmmm…. I’m thinking the need for a possible partner thing might have to do with wanting someone to help carry the burden. Which, now that I recognize that, is not all that fair, is it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -One way is to openly voice (perhaps to a trusted friend or a priest) all of the wrongs you believe you have committed. Another step is to ask and give forgiveness. Ask forgiveness for yourself once you have named that which you wish cleansed from your heart. Give forgiveness to others for what they have done. (This you are actually quite good at until it comes to yourself). Finally, don’t be afraid to keep trying, even knowing that further mistakes will come. A life without mistakes is a life without risks, challenges and growth. I believe in you and so do many others here. Our saying so won’t make you change your beliefs about yourself, but perhaps it will help give you the courage to keep on with your struggle. Thank you so much for your openness, charity and grace in this newsgroup. You deserve everything that you have brought to and wished for the rest of us here. Your friend and proud of it. joel

Right back at you…. jen

Response:

What an inspiration to all of us Mom’s and Dad’s! I do hope that you will keep this touching "momento" in your heart and use it, when necessary, especially when you doubt yourself. <snipped for brevity When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself?

IMHO, I think you’ve just took the first giant step towards your wish: by acknowledging it in the first place. Or, should I never forgive myself. If you don’t, the loved ones around you will suffer as well. If you do forgive yourself (I think you’ve already paid more than what was necessary), both them and you will prosper . How long do I pay this price?

For as long as you let it . jen

*** The only thing that stays the same is change ***

Response:

Kids, really see the real you. Adults and even ourselves as adults have to many preconceived ideas about the coisure ways, right, wrongs and what you should feel guilty about. Kids see it as new, not done been there themselves. It is just life to them….they even realize consequences, so to them it all makes sense. Think about in their friendships. How maybe your daughter would say something behind a friends back, or do something and lie about it, or don’t follow through on her promises or homework. Well she goes through the ups and downs as we do, dealing with their emotions. And, they don’t lose all their friends and in a day they are back to being exciteable, encouraged and liking themselves again. We pm tje ptjer jamd///// did you read that right? hands were off key. We on the other hand, condemn, if not others, ourselves. We judge and condemn. But what is it from? Our child like feelings? Or, what Society has put forth? Which having society rules, guidelines and christianity are needed, IMO. But it also pushes alot of people into being or thinking they are dysfunctional. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It was like a sudden knife to my stomache, and I burst into tears. For those who don’t know my story, I was the one who requested the divorce, who cheated on my ex, broke his heart, and destroyed the family. I have carried that guilt ever since. I wake up in the morning, and it’s the first thought that comes into my mind, an ache, a self-hate. Driving to work afterwards, I couldn’t stop crying, and I thought and thought. I thought about how, for the past three years, I have been paying for that sin, and trying to make amends. Objectively, yes, I do recognize that I have done an admirable job to that extent. I have dealt fairly with my ex. I have rebuilt a new life in which we can peacefully co-parent. I have taken care of my childrens’ emotional needs. I worked damn hard to do the right thing. I kept trying, and never gave up hope. The courts recognized this. My friends recognize this. My ex has come to recognize this. And now, wow, my daughter, in all her young wisdom, apparently has *also* recognized this. (She must; because in much more mundane things, like having two desserts, not one, well heck, I give in all the time…. ). Damn……. I see I have constantly sought forgiveness, in every action, and hung on every word of forgiveness that was offered. And, it seems everyone has forgiven me. *Except* myself. Why can’t I do that? Why do I keep punishing myself? I do it in many ways, large and small. It’s the pained look on my face, the holding back, with my kids sometimes. It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. It’s the way I deliberately flee from healthy relationships, as if I couldn’t possibly deserve them. And run to relationships that would surely break my heart, and give me a dose of my own medicine. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

So my bottom line is, think of you as a child, or think of you as your own daughter going through the same thing you are at your age. You will find that your innocence and ignorance, were in play when you made certain choices. But you have learned from that and that is life. You would not condemn yourself as a child or as your daughter, you too would find that forgiveness for them. I have to do this more then once in a while. Your post really hit me as far as admitting guilt. I go through that on a different level. I feel guilty for leaving someone that needed me……he still needs me…..and it kills me inside. I don’t want to hurt him anymore, but I do not want and will not go back. Alot of guilt… As he moves on, so will the guilt, I guess. But maybe the same for you. If you move on, maybe so will the guilt for you. And, it sounds like your ex is forgiving, that means he is still respectful of you. That is an accomplishment in this struggle. Best to you, Glos

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids wrote about the standard stuff you’d expect from a second grader (because she bakes me cookies, buys me toys, plays with me, etc). But not my daughter. Hers said, simply: "I love my mom because she never lets me down. She always keeps trying. She never gives up." What an inspiration to all of us Mom’s and Dad’s! I do hope that you will keep this touching "momento" in your heart and use it, when necessary, especially when you doubt yourself. <snipped for brevity When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? IMHO, I think you’ve just took the first giant step towards your wish: by acknowledging it in the first place.

I think you may be right. You know, I’ve always used this group for do-it-yourself-therapy. It’s a heck of a lot cheaper than the alternatives…. Thank you all for indulging me. Writing that post was what I needed. Reading all the replies made me bawl my eyes out. All so different, and each gave me a different angle to think about. But in the end, I am feeling better today. I think I still have a lot of work to do, but I’m starting to feel like at least I have a direction now…. thanks to all of you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or, should I never forgive myself. If you don’t, the loved ones around you will suffer as well. If you do forgive yourself (I think you’ve already paid more than what was necessary), both them and you will prosper . How long do I pay this price? For as long as you let it . jen *** The only thing that stays the same is change ***

Response:

Jen,……I can honestly speak from the other side of your situation,…….you MUST forgive yourself. Whether or not you turn toward faith, science, whatever. Forgiveness of self is essential from all sides. It’s done. Move on. Yer OK. How did that happen?

When it has happened to me, my cursor was not at the end of the post when i inserted my signature line. It would then truncate my sentence and — sam Don’t push the red button, Never push the red button! Daffy Duck install the signature line. ( He He he said truncate!)

Response:

When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price?

Jen,……I can honestly speak from the other side of your situation,…….you MUST forgive yourself. Whether or not you turn toward faith, science, whatever. Forgiveness of self — CJ da Yooper icq #96138398 "…..you can always tell when you’re in God’s country,…all the trees point to Him"is essential from all sides. It’s done. Move on. Yer OK.

Response:

How did that happen?

Response:

Jen, Don’t know if I’ve told you this already, but I’m glad you’re back ) I believe that, at every step along your life path, you made the best choices you were capable of — *at that time*. We all make poor choices — sometimes we know it right away, sometimes we don’t. You’ve used one of those poor choices to make significant changes in your life. And isn’t that what we’re all supposed to do — learn from our mistakes? I have some very painful experiences in my own past that are part of who I am today. While I would never want to go back and re-live them, I’ve come to see them as part of the fabric of my life. I wouldn’t be who I am today had I not been who I was back then. And most days, I quite like the way I’ve turned out. I wish for you the strength to give to yourself what you give so readily to others, and the peace that comes from having a heavy burden lifted from your shoulders. Barb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids wrote about the standard stuff you’d expect from a second grader (because she bakes me cookies, buys me toys, plays with me, etc). But not my daughter. Hers said, simply: "I love my mom because she never lets me down. She always keeps trying. She never gives up." It was like a sudden knife to my stomache, and I burst into tears. For those who don’t know my story, I was the one who requested the divorce, who cheated on my ex, broke his heart, and destroyed the family. I have carried that guilt ever since. I wake up in the morning, and it’s the first thought that comes into my mind, an ache, a self-hate. Driving to work afterwards, I couldn’t stop crying, and I thought and thought. I thought about how, for the past three years, I have been paying for that sin, and trying to make amends. Objectively, yes, I do recognize that I have done an admirable job to that extent. I have dealt fairly with my ex. I have rebuilt a new life in which we can peacefully co-parent. I have taken care of my childrens’ emotional needs. I worked damn hard to do the right thing. I kept trying, and never gave up hope. The courts recognized this. My friends recognize this. My ex has come to recognize this. And now, wow, my daughter, in all her young wisdom, apparently has *also* recognized this. (She must; because in much more mundane things, like having two desserts, not one, well heck, I give in all the time…. ). Damn……. I see I have constantly sought forgiveness, in every action, and hung on every word of forgiveness that was offered. And, it seems everyone has forgiven me. *Except* myself. Why can’t I do that? Why do I keep punishing myself? I do it in many ways, large and small. It’s the pained look on my face, the holding back, with my kids sometimes. It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. It’s the way I deliberately flee from healthy relationships, as if I couldn’t possibly deserve them. And run to relationships that would surely break my heart, and give me a dose of my own medicine. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

Listen to your daughter…..she commends you for your strengths….. above and beyond that, you share with all of us…. in my case with complete and disarming honesty…… not only do you recognize, but apply attentive thoughtfulness…… with that outreach let me please tell you how much hurt you prevent……. for and to MY children….. and me……. every time you make that effort amends are being made…. over and over again,….. all of that effort needs to be reflected back to you, in much gratitude, and humbled by kindness, Amy

Response:

SP, I’m top-posting cuz I already read all the responses so far and I don’t disagree with anything they have to say. It’s solid advice, whether or not you’re ready to accept it all or not. Trust that I know you’ve already gone through all the self-flagellation any one person could do and no doubt you’ve prayed for guidence. That’s all good. I’m going out on a limb here and probably gonna give some advice that will wrankle you and others, but I am speaking from my heart. Smile. Laugh. Cut yourself some slack. Dig down deep and find some humor in all of this. You’re human. You have foibles. You’re not perfect. Your baby girl is worried about you. She’s taking your lead. Give her a HUGE hug and tell her that you’re the biggest dork in the world and that people act like dorks sometimes but that it’s okay. That’s what people do. God’s grace forgives dorks like us for being silly sometimes, but it’s okay to get on with things and forget them. That’s what mommy’s and daddy’s do to sometimes but it doesn’t mean that we all don’t care about each other. When she sometimes acts like a dork, it doesn’t mean that she’s bad or unforgiveable. It just means that she made a mistake and it’s okay, just like God forgives us. Let her off the hook by YOUR letting yourself off the hook. You made a mistake. Get over the seriousness of it and tell yourself that you were a big stupid dork and you’ll do better in the future, just like you know your child will do. Sometimes even adults have to re-connect with their inner child in order to smile and forgive themselves for those bad bad boo boos they’ve done. We’re all children under God’s arms. Let him give you a big squeeze and know he forgives you too. It’s in the past. Smile darlin. The best is yet to come. Huggz, Ellen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids wrote about the standard stuff you’d expect from a second grader (because she bakes me cookies, buys me toys, plays with me, etc). But not my daughter. Hers said, simply: "I love my mom because she never lets me down. She always keeps trying. She never gives up." It was like a sudden knife to my stomache, and I burst into tears. For those who don’t know my story, I was the one who requested the divorce, who cheated on my ex, broke his heart, and destroyed the family. I have carried that guilt ever since. I wake up in the morning, and it’s the first thought that comes into my mind, an ache, a self-hate. Driving to work afterwards, I couldn’t stop crying, and I thought and thought. I thought about how, for the past three years, I have been paying for that sin, and trying to make amends. Objectively, yes, I do recognize that I have done an admirable job to that extent. I have dealt fairly with my ex. I have rebuilt a new life in which we can peacefully co-parent. I have taken care of my childrens’ emotional needs. I worked damn hard to do the right thing. I kept trying, and never gave up hope. The courts recognized this. My friends recognize this. My ex has come to recognize this. And now, wow, my daughter, in all her young wisdom, apparently has *also* recognized this. (She must; because in much more mundane things, like having two desserts, not one, well heck, I give in all the time…. ). Damn……. I see I have constantly sought forgiveness, in every action, and hung on every word of forgiveness that was offered. And, it seems everyone has forgiven me. *Except* myself. Why can’t I do that? Why do I keep punishing myself? I do it in many ways, large and small. It’s the pained look on my face, the holding back, with my kids sometimes. It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. It’s the way I deliberately flee from healthy relationships, as if I couldn’t possibly deserve them. And run to relationships that would surely break my heart, and give me a dose of my own medicine. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

I think your ex is right in this case, Jen. If you can’t bring yourself to go to confession, why not ask the priest to talk to you simply as an advisor? This is exactly the kind of problem you should be able to bring to him/her in that fashion. I think, btw, that it speaks well of you that you feel guilty about your acts. Far too many people in the world today have no remorse at all. But guilt isn’t something to be wallowed in, or to torment ourselves with forever. Its proper function is to remind us that we can and have failed to act rightly, and through that reminder to encourage us to try harder in the future. Genesis describes the origin of free will as the knowledge of good and evil. It’s knowing the difference, and having the choice, that makes us capable of morality. If we didn’t know the difference, or if our choices were completely determined, then we would deserve neither praise nor blame for our actions. Similarly, if we were perfect, sinless beings whose choices were always the right ones, it would be less meaningful, less cause for "rejoicing in Heaven", when we make those choices. It’s *because* we can stumble (and often have) that our choice to do good is meaningful and deserving of praise. My favorite question in these circumstances is, "What, you thought you were the one person who would get through life without making any mistakes?" — charlie (who’s probably a far worse sinner than you’ll ever be)

Response:

<very good but sad story snipped for brevity No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Jen, You will pay the price until you are ready to accept the forgiveness that is due to you. I agree with Mike that you are punishing yourself unnecessarily by not accepting the Lord’s forgiveness. I do believe that he stopped a little short in the Gospel that he was quoting, for the Lord finished the story by saying "Go and sin no more, and that sounds like exactly what you have done. I do not know your story as I am relatively new here, but it sounds like you have done a lot to repair the damage that you believe that you caused. I pray that you will accept the peace that the Lord is willing to offer you. Something that may help you is found in a chapter of a book that I have recommended here before. The book is "as for me and my house" by Walter Wangerin Jr. I have saved the chapter as a word 2000 document as well as a plain text document. In the chapter it gives specific instructions on how the person who commits adultery can work through their actions and receive the forgiveness that they are seeking. I will not impose it on you unless you are interested in receiving it. Just email me with the request and I will email it back. Please stop being so hard on yourself, for the Lord rejoices when anyone repents of their sins. A wonderful relationship with God is waiting for you! Good luck sam Don’t push the red button, Never push the red button! Daffy Duck

Response:

jen, You were my first friend here many years ago when my separation had just become official and divorce was still 18 months away. You have been a great sounding board (and comfort) for me over all that time and I have watched you give great adivce to others. More than that, I have seen you take great pains to discuss complex issues with great fairness and thoroughness. Now, I see you giving yourself less than you give others. What you fail to mention here is that you didn’t dictate a custody solution, you asked the court to investigate and recommend. When they examined the situation and recommended supervised visitation at most for your then stbx, you actually fought for more visitation on his behalf, while helping to draft the terms by which he might regain more equal footing and at the same time protect your children. While I do not condone how you chose to effect your exit from the marriage, clearly there was more going on that your own misbehavior. Just as clearly, when the chips were down, you acted in a selfless manner for the good of everyone, not just yourself. I believe that whatever insecure feelings you have and have had were present long before your action sin your marriage. You have made progress in leaving someof them behind and you will continue to do so, even if there is backsliding along the way. Many of us have urged you to heal your relationship with yourself before worrying so much about a possible partner. One way is to openly voice (perhaps to a trusted friend or a priest) all of the wrongs you believe you have committed. Another step is to ask and give forgiveness. Ask forgiveness for yourself once you have named that which you wish cleansed from your heart. Give forgiveness to others for what they have done. (This you are actually quite good at until it comes to yourself). Finally, don’t be afraid to keep trying, even knowing that further mistakes will come. A life without mistakes is a life without risks, challenges and growth. I believe in you and so do many others here. Our saying so won’t make you change your beliefs about yourself, but perhaps it will help give you the courage to keep on with your struggle. Thank you so much for your openness, charity and grace in this newsgroup. You deserve everything that you have brought to and wished for the rest of us here. Your friend and proud of it. joel

Response:

I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids wrote about the standard stuff you’d expect from a second grader (because she bakes me cookies, buys me toys, plays with me, etc). But not my daughter. Hers said, simply: "I love my mom because she never lets me down. She always keeps trying. She never gives up." It was like a sudden knife to my stomache, and I burst into tears. For those who don’t know my story, I was the one who requested the divorce, who cheated on my ex, broke his heart, and destroyed the family. I have carried that guilt ever since. I wake up in the morning, and it’s the first thought that comes into my mind, an ache, a self-hate. Driving to work afterwards, I couldn’t stop crying, and I thought and thought. I thought about how, for the past three years, I have been paying for that sin, and trying to make amends. Objectively, yes, I do recognize that I have done an admirable job to that extent. I have dealt fairly with my ex. I have rebuilt a new life in which we can peacefully co-parent. I have taken care of my childrens’ emotional needs. I worked damn hard to do the right thing. I kept trying, and never gave up hope. The courts recognized this. My friends recognize this. My ex has come to recognize this. And now, wow, my daughter, in all her young wisdom, apparently has *also* recognized this. (She must; because in much more mundane things, like having two desserts, not one, well heck, I give in all the time…. ). Damn……. I see I have constantly sought forgiveness, in every action, and hung on every word of forgiveness that was offered. And, it seems everyone has forgiven me. *Except* myself. Why can’t I do that? Why do I keep punishing myself? I do it in many ways, large and small. It’s the pained look on my face, the holding back, with my kids sometimes. It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. It’s the way I deliberately flee from healthy relationships, as if I couldn’t possibly deserve them. And run to relationships that would surely break my heart, and give me a dose of my own medicine. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

You torture yourself by refusing reconciliation. Reconciliation is a sacrament which we are encouraged to partake. You torture yourself by not taking communion. You deny Our Lord as well as yourself. Remember the story in the Gospels of Jesus and the adulteress. "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone…" To be in communion with God is part of what has brought me this far. I don’t know if I could have handled the breakup of my marriage without God. Remember too there is a great propensity for evil in the world. Sometimes our vision is blurred. Pray for healing and for guidance. I am sure Our Lord will guide you to a place of healing. You are carrying your cross alone and the burden is heavy. Let us help you carry your burden. Let God help carry the burden. Blame is no longer the issue. Healing is the issue. We are all weak. We all fail to measure up and we all need to pick ourselves up and try again. I will remember to add you in my prayers… Your brother in Christ, Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

Response:

I don’t have all the answers, but I wish I did. However, I will share with you my thoughts. I am a converted Catholic. Grew up Protestant and became a Catholic when I was 21 years old…going against the flow of all my friends the same age rapidly leaving the Church. In the catacuman (sp?) classes I took, we discussed sin. I had difficulty accepting some teachings of the church and couldn’t deal with some ideas of sin that I did not believe were sins at all. The priest teaching my class (and priests are people too, remember) said that by the time we are adults we have fairly well been taught what is right and what is wrong (for the most part.) If we do something that we know deep in our hearts is wrong, then we are "sinning" of some sort. We can justify it all we want, make a million excuses and lie about it until the cows come home, but deep inside we know it is wrong. However, if we truly believe deep in our soul that something is right, then we are not sinning. There is a big issue of honesty with one’s self. Some people cannot do that. They are so used to lying to everyone that they have turned into compulsive liars to themselves as well. However, I do not believe this is true in your case. God has already forgiven you. That is what He does. He has blessed you with this life, and has not made it so easy that you take too much for granted. He has been especially loving towards you by allowing you to experience the pure and innocent love of a child. This child, who models herself after two people she truly loves, her mom and her dad, is full of thoughts and feelings. She sees how you allow yourself to be treated…not just by others, but by yourself. She would love to see you take that step that admits you are simply a human trying to live your life the best you can. Do you want to send her a message that she can never make a mistake and then expect forgiveness? Oh, we already know the answer to that question. But until you let go of your self-inflicted guilt, that is exactly what the message is you are sending to her, and to everyone else in your life. Can you imagine loving someone who is so set on martyrdom and perfection? Can anyone ever live up to such high standards? I know I am about to cross over the line here, but I wanted to help you see this story from the outside. I say, yes, cry. Feel terrible about what you have done. That is all the way it should be if you have any conscience at all. But now it is in the past. THE PAST. You are not appreciating the blessing of the life you have in THE PRESENT and especially, the wonders and happiness that await you in THE FUTURE until you let it all slip away. I have a motto: If it is beyond my control, let it go, learn, and move on. And baby, that is so true for you. Stay away from any other relationships for a while until you feel pretty darn good about yourself. It will happen if you give it a chance. Write in a journal. Go to a therapist. Read a million books about guilt and self-esteem. And then when it is right, someone marvelous may or may not come along. But it will only be the extra stuff to enhance what is already a pretty terrific life by that point. If you want to pay a price, send me a nickel. (:-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I went to my daughter’s school conference today. The whole class had written these essays "why I love my mom." All the kids wrote about the standard stuff you’d expect from a second grader (because she bakes me cookies, buys me toys, plays with me, etc). But not my daughter. Hers said, simply: "I love my mom because she never lets me down. She always keeps trying. She never gives up." It was like a sudden knife to my stomache, and I burst into tears. For those who don’t know my story, I was the one who requested the divorce, who cheated on my ex, broke his heart, and destroyed the family. I have carried that guilt ever since. I wake up in the morning, and it’s the first thought that comes into my mind, an ache, a self-hate. Driving to work afterwards, I couldn’t stop crying, and I thought and thought. I thought about how, for the past three years, I have been paying for that sin, and trying to make amends. Objectively, yes, I do recognize that I have done an admirable job to that extent. I have dealt fairly with my ex. I have rebuilt a new life in which we can peacefully co-parent. I have taken care of my childrens’ emotional needs. I worked damn hard to do the right thing. I kept trying, and never gave up hope. The courts recognized this. My friends recognize this. My ex has come to recognize this. And now, wow, my daughter, in all her young wisdom, apparently has *also* recognized this. (She must; because in much more mundane things, like having two desserts, not one, well heck, I give in all the time…. ). Damn……. I see I have constantly sought forgiveness, in every action, and hung on every word of forgiveness that was offered. And, it seems everyone has forgiven me. *Except* myself. Why can’t I do that? Why do I keep punishing myself? I do it in many ways, large and small. It’s the pained look on my face, the holding back, with my kids sometimes. It’s the cringing feeling when I enter a church, and don’t get up to take communion. It’s the way I deliberately flee from healthy relationships, as if I couldn’t possibly deserve them. And run to relationships that would surely break my heart, and give me a dose of my own medicine. You know, I think about the church a lot. I take my kids to sunday school on my weeks, it is part of the promise I made when they were baptized, and I’m honoring it. My ex has suggested that I would feel so much better, if I went to confession, as he did. But, I tell him that I can’t. I do believe God would forgive and absolve me, but I guess I’m not sure if I can do that. In many ways, I think God has already absolved me, and provided numerous blessings over these years. No, it’s me. I’m not ready, and God can’t completely absolve me until I am. When will I be ready, when can I forgive myself? Or, should I never forgive myself. How long do I pay this price? jen

This is a tough one. It sounds like you really have accepted your mistakes, admitted them, and turned your life around… I wish I had an answer for you…. Just keep working on it… therapy may help…

Response:

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Lonely Loneliness

You are not alone — Lonely Loneliness