Lonely Loneliness

Wife doesn't believe she's cheating or hurting our relationship

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com (Ian) writes: > Thanks to all who have replied so far.  Doug you especially.  I am > realizing now that I (we) may need some outside help with this. This > situation is so far outside the norm of our 15 year wonderful > relationship it still feels very surreal.  I am on completely new > terrain and can’t find my feet to move forward. > Clearly my wife has somehow convinced herself this isn’t a big deal > and shouldn’t be a problem for our relationship in order to justify > her actions, or to mitigate my pain.  She does recognize that I am > hurt and has offered sincere apologies for hurting me, but so far the > apologies come with trying to convince me why I shouldn’t be hurting- > a kind of passing the buck back onto me.  This is what I feel has to > be broken, and may require some outside help in getting her to > recognize this.  If we can get to that place, I am sure she will come > to an umderstanding of how misguided she has been and allow real > healing to take place.

That’s good, and let me reinforce the idea of outside help. If I were your wife and I was trying to justify myself, I’d say something like "look, I understand you were suprised by this, but you are still getting everything out of our relationship you were before, so why should it matter?" It is an interesting question, but it is only tangentially relevant. The thing that really _is_ relevant is that it _does_ matter to you. (It is also good for you and your wife to both understand why it matters, but that is sort of secondary until she accepts that it really does matter.)

Response:

"Ian" <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:567f3100.0407271534.358e0c1c@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks to all who have replied so far.  Doug you especially.  I am > realizing now that I (we) may need some outside help with this. This > situation is so far outside the norm of our 15 year wonderful > relationship it still feels very surreal.  I am on completely new > terrain and can’t find my feet to move forward. > Clearly my wife has somehow convinced herself this isn’t a big deal > and shouldn’t be a problem for our relationship in order to justify > her actions, or to mitigate my pain.  She does recognize that I am > hurt and has offered sincere apologies for hurting me, but so far the > apologies come with trying to convince me why I shouldn’t be hurting- > a kind of passing the buck back onto me.  This is what I feel has to > be broken, and may require some outside help in getting her to > recognize this.  If we can get to that place, I am sure she will come > to an umderstanding of how misguided she has been and allow real > healing to take place.

Does she think it’s appropriate for a wife and mother of four young children to be out giving mercy blowjobs ???

Response:

Thank you Tracey, I think you are right on target.  Because my wife and I have been on the same page regarding most any marriage issue it is a totally new experience for us to work through this one.  We may need a third party to help us through this. We are going to have a long talk about this tonight.  This is the second day. Yesterday was such a shock I really had few words other than why and how could you.  Thank you for your kind words.

Response:

"Ian" <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:567f3100.0407270621.6ee0b9ed@posting.google.com… > I am going crazy and am at an absolute loss as how to handle this.

It *is*  a shock when a spouse does somethng that seems out of character or so obviously to the detriment of the relationship. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To > offer some background, my wife and I have been very happily married > for 15 years now, and have four terrific children.  We each have a > deep understanding of one another and our family needs, and are > completely honest to each other.  An example of this that our friends > think is crazy (or we are lying) is the fact that I haven’t told even > the most innocent white lie to my wife in so long I can’t remember > ever doing it, and she the same with me.  Our communication is good, > and because we think so much alike, problems that do arise are quickly > solved.  Six years ago after our third child was born, when our > childcare situation became unacceptable, I took on the most > challenging and rewarding job ever as a stay at home dad.  My wife’s > career was going up, mine was stagnating at best, it was an easy > decision and each of us fully supported. > The problem is my wife has started a sexual relationship with a very > good friend at her work.  Both of us have known him for years and he > is a truly nice guy that has been beset with several unfortunate > personal circumstances that I won’t go into other than the fact he is > separated from his wife.  They often lunch together and will > occasionally be out for a drink or dinner with other employees.  He > has talked a lot about his problems to my wife over the past couple of > years, and I have always been happy that he has had somebody to talk > to.

I think this is almost always too dangerous when it occurs between people who are the opposite sex who are in relationships with other people. > Two weeks ago, after he broke down to my wife about his loneliness and > lack of intimate contact with his wife, my wife "serviced" him. She > said that they both felt awkward and embarrassed afterward and in her > mind decided it was best to "forget it".

Her judgement was temporarily affected by being too close to the situation. Yes, I can see that. I also think it was almost inevitable. Not so much that she granted him this intimacy but that they came to the point where she’d be asked to. >She later brought the issue > up with him, asking what his thoughts were about it. He basically said > he felt both regret and wonderful relief but didn’t want it to > continue as they both were married. This led to a discussion about > emotions and relationships, and to make this short, decided it did > make him feel so good (surprise!) and that the act could be done > without any emotional strings.

Except that they were done within the context of an emotional relationship. It’s gone deeper than a friendship now. Needy people can be very seductive. My wife went down on him twice more in > the following week and then decided she had to tell me.

This is where I’m torn. If it really was just a couple of meaningless ’servicings’ then she should have been able to deal with it on her own. Sometimes I think people should just deal with their mistakes privately and get on with it, other times I think confession will bring about a stronger relationship. Do you think she confessed because she wants help to stop or because she wants permission to keep going? > The initial shock was hard to describe, it hurt badly.

Of course it did. >What is even > harder is her seemingly casual attitude about it and the damage to our > relationship that she doesn’t seem to believe.

It’s because it probably was comparatively less important to her. Possibly not as much as she’d like you to believe but it’s quite believable that the impact for her was much less than it has been for you. I doubt it was meaningless. > She has told me that > she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around".

How generous of her! The implication being that she rather likes her new role and would like it to continue? >She truly believes > doing this is nothing more than helping out a buddy and has no > repercussions beyond that. And when I have time to understand and work > through this, I’ll magically be ok with it.

The problem is that she’s in denial and either unable or refusing to let herself feel empathy for you.   I asked why she thought > this would be the case when I am clearly hurting, her response was to > shrug and say I didn’t fully understand that it just wasn’t that big a > deal, and she felt no differently toward me or our relationship.

But that’s not the point, is it?  The point is that you feel differently about her and your relationship knowing she did this. >She > is clearly getting something out of this, and forgive me for being > crude, she has a fascination with uncircumcised penises (I’m not) and > it came out that he is uncircumcised and was at least somewhat > enjoyable for her.

My goodness, I’m not sure why she felt the need to share that little thought with you, even if you do have a very honest relationship!  I do believe that she believes (at the very least) > that this has neither changed her relationship with him or our > marriage.  She is a sexual person and has somewhat of a "guy" attitude > toward sex (sorry about the stereotype- biological need, sans > emotions).

It’s ok, I’m a woman and I can understand where your wife is coming from on this. It’s just that when one is in an exclusive relationship it’s important to make sure both  spouses agree before one unilaterally changes the conditions. Your wife seems to have forgotten that. > Thanks for listening to me vent.  Right now I oscillate between a > variety of things, mostly however toward that this can’t continue no > matter how good a friend or how small the favor.  Please offer any > constructive advice, but please no "dump the *itch" as our > relationship is too strong and not realistic.  Ian.

To me the most damaging aspect is not so much that your wife was carried away by her sympathetic feelings but that she refuses to validate your feelings about this. It’s not acceptable for her to tell you that you should feel less just because it’s more convenient for her. Also, and I don’t suppose this has registered with you yet, your wife isn’t being as kind to her friend as she might think. He’s upset and at an emotional low point and while I’m sure he enjoyed her attentions, he’s managed to involve himself with a married woman who isn’t free to have a healthy relationship with him. It’s not good for any of you. What if he thinks he’s in love with your wife? It could even be said that your wife has taken advantage of him to service her own need to feel good. I don’t have any advice that hasn’t already been offered by other people. I do think you can work through this but it needs a bit more understanding of your position from your wife, first. Good luck! Tai

Response:

Thanks to all who have replied so far.  Doug you especially.  I am realizing now that I (we) may need some outside help with this. This situation is so far outside the norm of our 15 year wonderful relationship it still feels very surreal.  I am on completely new terrain and can’t find my feet to move forward. Clearly my wife has somehow convinced herself this isn’t a big deal and shouldn’t be a problem for our relationship in order to justify her actions, or to mitigate my pain.  She does recognize that I am hurt and has offered sincere apologies for hurting me, but so far the apologies come with trying to convince me why I shouldn’t be hurting- a kind of passing the buck back onto me.  This is what I feel has to be broken, and may require some outside help in getting her to recognize this.  If we can get to that place, I am sure she will come to an umderstanding of how misguided she has been and allow real healing to take place. The comment regarding the possiblilty of my wife using her income as some sort of control mechanism doesn’t apply here.  She thankfully does recognize my job is much harder and ultimately more importain than hers . I am thankful for your responses, it felt good just to post my thoughts and feelings to this group.

Response:

On 28 Jul 2004 17:44:49 GMT, Ignoramus5882 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ignoramus5…@NOSPAM.5882.invalid> wrote: > Tony Miller <t…@cigardiary.com> wrote: > *  On 28 Jul 2004 07:41:53 -0700, Ian > * <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote: > *   > * <Snip> > *   > * > We did talk a lot about trust.  I do want to trust her completely, but > * > she has to understand that I may be troubled for awhile.  I do want > * > her to keep her friendship with this guy (I would never tell her who > * > she could or couldn’t be friends with).  And although it is hard to > * > say right now, I hope to remain friends with the guy as well. > *   > *  Wow, how foolish.  I would want her never to see him again, and I would > *  have had a man-to-man discussion with him which probably would culminate > *  in the promise that if he ever touched my wife again, I’d put him in the > *  hospital. > I have to agree with you here, much to my surprise!

You surprised me too. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet…@yahoo.com> wrote: > <snipped my own response.> > I’m suddenly having this "I Have Been Trolled" feeling.  

It got me.  :-)  However, I comfort myself with the idea that the lurkers need my pearls of wisdom anyway.

Response:

You are an amazing person. Rather than lose your cool and get angry and self-righteous, you look to forgive, trust and move on. I wish you and your wife the absolute best. S

Response:

On 28 Jul 2004 07:41:53 -0700, Ian <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote:

<Snip> > We did talk a lot about trust.  I do want to trust her completely, but > she has to understand that I may be troubled for awhile.  I do want > her to keep her friendship with this guy (I would never tell her who > she could or couldn’t be friends with).  And although it is hard to > say right now, I hope to remain friends with the guy as well.

Wow, how foolish.  I would want her never to see him again, and I would have had a man-to-man discussion with him which probably would culminate in the promise that if he ever touched my wife again, I’d put him in the hospital. -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

We had a very long and productive talk last night.  It wasn’t easy, and was tear filled for both of us.  I brought up the possibility of needing a counselor and that really was the catalyst for her to see just how much I was hurting, and how delusional it was for her to think this was an ok behavior in our relationship.  Having her envision how she would feel if I were to offer the same "help" to an opposite sex friend also helped (she said she would break my legs!). She really broke down after she realized this. She did admit that she had been (consciously and unconsciously) trying to justify  it in her own mind as being ok to do.  Although the flip side of this, and part of the force driving her to justify it, was the element of the thrill of trying "something new".  Something she also admitted to.  If there was any boundry confusion, there isn’t anymore.  But again, she knew it wasn’t ok to cheat beforehand, but deluded herself under the circumstances (good friend in pain, no strings= no cheating) that it was safe.  The brain is a very powerful organ indeed. We did talk a lot about trust.  I do want to trust her completely, but she has to understand that I may be troubled for awhile.  I do want her to keep her friendship with this guy (I would never tell her who she could or couldn’t be friends with).  And although it is hard to say right now, I hope to remain friends with the guy as well. I asked that she stay open to the possibility of counseling.  If she has any remaining issues, such as a desire for infidelity, I want her to be able to talk with someone about it.  Both of us realize we have too much at stake and too much love for one another to put our marriage at risk.  We do have so much to look forward to as well. Maybe things have been so good for so long we kind of took things for granted, and it made this perhaps easier to occur. I did tell her I was posting to this group and found it a very theraputic experience.  Thank you for all your support and replies. We are not at the end of this road yet, but I feel at least on the right path.

Response:

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:15:04 -0400, dejablues – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<dejablu…@comcast.net> wrote: > "Ian" <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:567f3100.0407271534.358e0c1c@posting.google.com… >> Thanks to all who have replied so far.  Doug you especially.  I am >> realizing now that I (we) may need some outside help with this. This >> situation is so far outside the norm of our 15 year wonderful >> relationship it still feels very surreal.  I am on completely new >> terrain and can’t find my feet to move forward. >> Clearly my wife has somehow convinced herself this isn’t a big deal >> and shouldn’t be a problem for our relationship in order to justify >> her actions, or to mitigate my pain.  She does recognize that I am >> hurt and has offered sincere apologies for hurting me, but so far the >> apologies come with trying to convince me why I shouldn’t be hurting- >> a kind of passing the buck back onto me.  This is what I feel has to >> be broken, and may require some outside help in getting her to >> recognize this.  If we can get to that place, I am sure she will come >> to an umderstanding of how misguided she has been and allow real >> healing to take place. > Does she think it’s appropriate for a wife and mother of four young children > to be out giving mercy blowjobs ???

Well, we live in a society (some of us do anyway) where a former President doesn’t believe that a blowjob is "sexshul relations". What do we expect? -Tony — "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it’s time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage?  Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ian, OK.   >First of all I’m assuming that you and your wife _don’t_ have an open >sexual relationship and that this is not normal behavior for you two. >Some people have arranged their relationship to be like this, and >that’s different. >I think your biggest problem, and one you need to confront with your >wife is that she is not taking seriously the degree to which this is >hurting you.  This, by the way, is common behavior for someone having >an affair (that is, being unwilling to accept the degree to which he >or she is hurting his or her partner).  She may have all kinds of >reasons why you _shouldn’t_ be hurt by this, but until she stops >giving you those reasons and starts listening to the fact that you >_are_ hurt by it, you two don’t have a chance to start repairing the >damage.

Excellent, excellent advice.  Something I missed entirely.  Good call. Rm

Response:

Fidelity in a marriage is very important.  However, this is kind of a different matter altogether since there doesn’t seem to be any emotional infidelity. Since your wife views sex as a natural function (which is very healthy and normal by the way), rather than some type of contrivance that "MEANS" something else, I believe that she was just doing something nice to help out a friend.  Kind of like buying them a nice card or present.  Certainly she didn’t do it to hurt you or your marriage.  As for the uncircumsized penis thing.  Well, it’s natural to be curious. Of course, it might have been more prudent to satisfy this natural curiosity by looking at pictures. I dont’ think it was a bad thing.  I think if I were in your shoes I would understand and accept what she did and why and let it go at that with no hard feelings.  If it truly bothers you, I would definitely ask her not to do it again – which I think is your right as a husband. If she refuses to comply with that wish – then you have the RIGHT to get upset.   Em

Response:

tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com (Ian) wrote in message <news:567f3100.0407270621.6ee0b9ed@posting.google.com>… > She has told me that > she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around".

If this is true, your problem is solved, isn’t it? Maybe she indeed does not see it as a big deal.

Response:

shinypenny0…@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:

snip > What I think is happening is that you’re learning that you have > boundaries. Perhaps in your marriage you’ve never made it clear that > having sex with other men is crossing your boundary. Maybe you assumed > that was understood when you took your vows. > Or maybe you weren’t sure how you’d really feel and your wife misread > your indecisiveness as indicating you’d probably be okay with it under > certain circumstances. Maybe she sensed your appreciation for her > "male-like" sexual attitude and mis-translated that in a way you > didn’t really intend her to. Maybe you’ve joked in the past about > having an open marriage… you meant it as a joke, but she misread > things.

snip > This makes a lot of sense to me. > The fact that you’re posting here seems to indicate you are looking > for us to validate that it’s okay to feel this way, okay to have this > boundary. Well, it is. And that has little to do with what is right or > wrong, what society expects, what is normal in a marriage. Instead, it > has everything to do with how you feel now that that boundary was > crossed.

Yes,  exactly!

Response:

"Ian" <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:567f3100.0407270621.6ee0b9ed@posting.google.com… > Two weeks ago, after he broke down to my wife about his loneliness and > lack of intimate contact with his wife, my wife "serviced" him.

dude hope you didn’t tongue kiss her that night that would blow no pun intended.

Response:

tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com (Ian) wrote in message <news:567f3100.0407270621.6ee0b9ed@posting.google.com>… > This led to a discussion about > emotions and relationships, and to make this short, decided it did > make him feel so good (surprise!) and that the act could be done > without any emotional strings. My wife went down on him twice more in > the following week and then decided she had to tell me.

Was this guy having an issue about sex without emotional strings? Did he not believe it was possible, so your wife took it into her hands to prove it to him? > The initial shock was hard to describe, it hurt badly. What is even > harder is her seemingly casual attitude about it and the damage to our > relationship that she doesn’t seem to believe. She has told me that > she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around". She truly believes > doing this is nothing more than helping out a buddy and has no > repercussions beyond that.

Maybe a heartfelt hug might’ve been enough and accomplished the same thing? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And when I have time to understand and work > through this, I’ll magically be ok with it.  I asked why she thought > this would be the case when I am clearly hurting, her response was to > shrug and say I didn’t fully understand that it just wasn’t that big a > deal, and she felt no differently toward me or our relationship. She > is clearly getting something out of this, and forgive me for being > crude, she has a fascination with uncircumcised penises (I’m not) and > it came out that he is uncircumcised and was at least somewhat > enjoyable for her.  I do believe that she believes (at the very least) > that this has neither changed her relationship with him or our > marriage.  She is a sexual person and has somewhat of a "guy" attitude > toward sex (sorry about the stereotype- biological need, sans > emotions). > Thanks for listening to me vent.  Right now I oscillate between a > variety of things, mostly however toward that this can’t continue no > matter how good a friend or how small the favor.  Please offer any > constructive advice, but please no "dump the *itch" as our > relationship is too strong and not realistic.  Ian.

I’m not going to tell you to dump her. Sounds to me like you have a lot going for your relationship, as warped as this current situation sounds. You have a high level of honesty, and that’s a big one, and you can communicate with each other. What I think is happening is that you’re learning that you have boundaries. Perhaps in your marriage you’ve never made it clear that having sex with other men is crossing your boundary. Maybe you assumed that was understood when you took your vows. Or maybe you weren’t sure how you’d really feel and your wife misread your indecisiveness as indicating you’d probably be okay with it under certain circumstances. Maybe she sensed your appreciation for her "male-like" sexual attitude and mis-translated that in a way you didn’t really intend her to. Maybe you’ve joked in the past about having an open marriage… you meant it as a joke, but she misread things. Who knows, and frankly, it really doesn’t matter. What matters is NOW you know: her having sex with another is definetly, clearly outside your comfort zone. It sounds like you’re realizing it doesn’t matter what the situation or circumstance or why – it simply doesn’t feel right for you. That’s the way boundaries are – you can state a boundary all you like, but it’s not uncommon to change your mind when one is crossed. It’s also not uncommon for a person to not realize they have a particularly boundary until it is crossed. For example I had a friend who thought she might like an open marriage, but the first (and only) time she and her husband experimented with a third person, she reacted by getting violently ill. It sounded good on paper, she thought she was open to that sort of thing, having thought & fantasized about it for years…. but the reality was much different. She spent weeks trying to talk herself out of this reaction – questioning what was wrong with her that she couldn’t handle the open thing. Did she have a  jealous streak she should fix? Yadda yadda. I finally suggested that she should relax and embrace the fact that she’d discovered she had a boundary, and live with it! So what does all this mean for you and how do you apply this to your marriage? You need to communicate to her that a boundary has been crossed. If she tries to act like it shouldn’t be a big deal, or try to reason you out of your boundary, telling you you shouldn’t feel this way, you should hold firm. You are entitled to your feelings on this, as she is entitled to her own. I suspect if you hold firm she will come around and respect your boundary. It’s when people waver that they tend to send mixed messages and encourage their partner to try and talk them into the other direction. The fact that you’re posting here seems to indicate you are looking for us to validate that it’s okay to feel this way, okay to have this boundary. Well, it is. And that has little to do with what is right or wrong, what society expects, what is normal in a marriage. Instead, it has everything to do with how you feel now that that boundary was crossed. jen

Response:

"Ian" <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:567f3100.0407270621.6ee0b9ed@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am going crazy and am at an absolute loss as how to handle this.  To > offer some background, my wife and I have been very happily married > for 15 years now, and have four terrific children.  We each have a > deep understanding of one another and our family needs, and are > completely honest to each other.  An example of this that our friends > think is crazy (or we are lying) is the fact that I haven’t told even > the most innocent white lie to my wife in so long I can’t remember > ever doing it, and she the same with me.  Our communication is good, > and because we think so much alike, problems that do arise are quickly > solved.  Six years ago after our third child was born, when our > childcare situation became unacceptable, I took on the most > challenging and rewarding job ever as a stay at home dad.  My wife’s > career was going up, mine was stagnating at best, it was an easy > decision and each of us fully supported. > The problem is my wife has started a sexual relationship with a very > good friend at her work.  Both of us have known him for years and he > is a truly nice guy that has been beset with several unfortunate > personal circumstances that I won’t go into other than the fact he is > separated from his wife.  They often lunch together and will > occasionally be out for a drink or dinner with other employees.  He > has talked a lot about his problems to my wife over the past couple of > years, and I have always been happy that he has had somebody to talk > to. > Two weeks ago, after he broke down to my wife about his loneliness and > lack of intimate contact with his wife, my wife "serviced" him. She > said that they both felt awkward and embarrassed afterward and in her > mind decided it was best to "forget it". She later brought the issue > up with him, asking what his thoughts were about it. He basically said > he felt both regret and wonderful relief but didn’t want it to > continue as they both were married. This led to a discussion about > emotions and relationships, and to make this short, decided it did > make him feel so good (surprise!) and that the act could be done > without any emotional strings. My wife went down on him twice more in > the following week and then decided she had to tell me. > The initial shock was hard to describe, it hurt badly. What is even > harder is her seemingly casual attitude about it and the damage to our > relationship that she doesn’t seem to believe. She has told me that > she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around". She truly believes > doing this is nothing more than helping out a buddy and has no > repercussions beyond that. And when I have time to understand and work > through this, I’ll magically be ok with it.  I asked why she thought > this would be the case when I am clearly hurting, her response was to > shrug and say I didn’t fully understand that it just wasn’t that big a > deal, and she felt no differently toward me or our relationship. She > is clearly getting something out of this, and forgive me for being > crude, she has a fascination with uncircumcised penises (I’m not) and > it came out that he is uncircumcised and was at least somewhat > enjoyable for her.  I do believe that she believes (at the very least) > that this has neither changed her relationship with him or our > marriage.  She is a sexual person and has somewhat of a "guy" attitude > toward sex (sorry about the stereotype- biological need, sans > emotions). > Thanks for listening to me vent.  Right now I oscillate between a > variety of things, mostly however toward that this can’t continue no > matter how good a friend or how small the favor.  Please offer any > constructive advice, but please no "dump the *itch" as our > relationship is too strong and not realistic.  Ian.

Why can’t the guy just masturbate? She’s doing it for herself, and saying that it’s a favor to him just isn’t true.

Response:

"Ignoramus25231" <ignoramus25…@NOSPAM.25231.invalid> wrote in message

news:ce649e$idq$0@pita.alt.net… > It could be indeed a fantasy post, yes…

Why go to the bother?  The real-life here at times seems pretty much a fantasy to me! Ted

Response:

Ian wrote:

 > I do believe that she believes (at the very least) that  >this has neither changed her relationship with him or our > marriage.  

Here’s the thing: Your marriage does not just encompass your wife’s opinions/beliefs/feelings. It also encompasses yours. So, just because your wife doesn’t feel that it’s changed your marriage doesn’t mean that it hasn’t. Unfortunately, that’s a tough thing to get across to someone. I also think (and this is going to sound a little strange) that your previous history of always being on the same page about issues is going to work against you here. If you’ve *never* had an issue that you disagreed on for more than a few hours or a day or two, then your ability to work out this much more complex issue is going to be lessened. I once explained this to my husband like this. There are three basic categories that issues or disagreements will fall under for me. There are things that I have an opinion on but, overall, whether it does or doesn’t happen is not much of a deal for me at all. An example would be something like holding a door open for someone else. IMO, the first person to the door should hold it open for the rest of the people in their party but if that person doesn’t, it’s not something that is going to cause me to get angry or think that that person is obviously a rude person with no manners. It’s not even a blip on my radar. Then there are things that I have an opinion about that will need a lot of discussion if they happen and maybe a bit of compromising on my part or even just plain me sucking it up if it happens. An example of that would be when my youngest stepson asked to come live with us last year. I originally did not want him to come at all but after a lot of discussions about the conditions under which he would come, I was ready to suck it up if he did. The last category would be things that I have very, very strong opinions about and I will not compromise on them at all. An example of that would be my husband having <another> affair. That’s not something that I will discuss, compromise on, or suck up. IMO, we all have at least some version of those categories going on inside our head, we just don’t sit down and decide which fits into which category. Problems, BIG problems, don’t rear their heads in relationships until both people have the problem in the second or third category. If, as an example, an issue I’m talking about with my husband falls in the first category for me and the second or third category for him, it’s pretty easily solved. If the issue falls in the second category for him and the third category for me, then it should be pretty easily solved, too. When the issue is in the second category for both of us, it takes a little more work, but it’s still solvable. When the issue is in the third category for both of us and we’re disagreeing, that’s where it’s impossible to solve. Now, that’s a lot of typing I’ve done and maybe it doesn’t make much sense to you at this point, but I did have a point in here. It sounds to me like, at this point, this issue is falling in the third category for you and in the second category for your wife. I say this because she’s said she will not continue her actions until you, as you put it, ‘have time to understand and work through this.’ She’s not saying ‘I believe what I’m doing is okay and, no matter what you say, I’m going to continue’ so there IS still hope at this point. I would suggest some third party getting involved right now to help you two get to a point where you’re *both* able to get to a point where you realize that the other one doesn’t have to share the same opinion/belief/feeling about this issue so long as both of you are comfortable with what is actually going on. By that I mean that, from the way I read it, both of you are ignoring the other person’s opinion/belief/feeling about what happened and wanting the other one to change that opinion/belief/ feeling. IMO, that isn’t necessary and it might even be impossible. What IS possible is for both of you to continue to have the belief you have now about what happened but still come to an agreement on what is and isn’t an acceptable action out of that belief. Tracey

Response:

"Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1ghkytx.fom3m45ukx95N%mbjq@earthlink.net… > I know I’ll get flamed for this, but this story and many others like it > are why I am so leery about one spouse being entirely a stay at home > parent.  It seems like the spouse with the income has so much power to > say this is what I’m doing, take it or leave it.  I just don’t see her > being quite so casual about his pain and hurt if he were the one with > the income and she was financially dependent.

Huh?  What does who is earning what have to do with it? Ted

Response:

<snipped my own response.> I’m suddenly having this "I Have Been Trolled" feeling.   Apologies to the OP if you are for real, but anyone else remember this post from two years ago? http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bed91a8c.0205210502.445c9888%40p…

Response:

Ian <tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com> wrote: > Six years ago after our third child was born, when our > childcare situation became unacceptable, I took on the most > challenging and rewarding job ever as a stay at home dad.  My wife’s > career was going up, mine was stagnating at best, it was an easy > decision and each of us fully supported. > The problem is my wife has started a sexual relationship with a very > good friend at her work.

I know I’ll get flamed for this, but this story and many others like it are why I am so leery about one spouse being entirely a stay at home parent.  It seems like the spouse with the income has so much power to say this is what I’m doing, take it or leave it.  I just don’t see her being quite so casual about his pain and hurt if he were the one with the income and she was financially dependent.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -tinkerbell1…@hotmail.com (Ian) writes: > I am going crazy and am at an absolute loss as how to handle this.  To > offer some background, my wife and I have been very happily married > for 15 years now, and have four terrific children.  We each have a > deep understanding of one another and our family needs, and are > completely honest to each other.  An example of this that our friends > think is crazy (or we are lying) is the fact that I haven’t told even > the most innocent white lie to my wife in so long I can’t remember > ever doing it, and she the same with me.  Our communication is good, > and because we think so much alike, problems that do arise are quickly > solved.  Six years ago after our third child was born, when our > childcare situation became unacceptable, I took on the most > challenging and rewarding job ever as a stay at home dad.  My wife’s > career was going up, mine was stagnating at best, it was an easy > decision and each of us fully supported. > The problem is my wife has started a sexual relationship with a very > good friend at her work.  Both of us have known him for years and he > is a truly nice guy that has been beset with several unfortunate > personal circumstances that I won’t go into other than the fact he is > separated from his wife.  They often lunch together and will > occasionally be out for a drink or dinner with other employees.  He > has talked a lot about his problems to my wife over the past couple of > years, and I have always been happy that he has had somebody to talk > to. > Two weeks ago, after he broke down to my wife about his loneliness and > lack of intimate contact with his wife, my wife "serviced" him. She > said that they both felt awkward and embarrassed afterward and in her > mind decided it was best to "forget it". She later brought the issue > up with him, asking what his thoughts were about it. He basically said > he felt both regret and wonderful relief but didn’t want it to > continue as they both were married. This led to a discussion about > emotions and relationships, and to make this short, decided it did > make him feel so good (surprise!) and that the act could be done > without any emotional strings. My wife went down on him twice more in > the following week and then decided she had to tell me. > The initial shock was hard to describe, it hurt badly. What is even > harder is her seemingly casual attitude about it and the damage to our > relationship that she doesn’t seem to believe. She has told me that > she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around". She truly believes > doing this is nothing more than helping out a buddy and has no > repercussions beyond that. And when I have time to understand and work > through this, I’ll magically be ok with it.  I asked why she thought > this would be the case when I am clearly hurting, her response was to > shrug and say I didn’t fully understand that it just wasn’t that big a > deal, and she felt no differently toward me or our relationship. She > is clearly getting something out of this, and forgive me for being > crude, she has a fascination with uncircumcised penises (I’m not) and > it came out that he is uncircumcised and was at least somewhat > enjoyable for her.  I do believe that she believes (at the very least) > that this has neither changed her relationship with him or our > marriage.  She is a sexual person and has somewhat of a "guy" attitude > toward sex (sorry about the stereotype- biological need, sans > emotions). > Thanks for listening to me vent.  Right now I oscillate between a > variety of things, mostly however toward that this can’t continue no > matter how good a friend or how small the favor.  Please offer any > constructive advice, but please no "dump the *itch" as our > relationship is too strong and not realistic.  Ian.

Ian, OK.   First of all I’m assuming that you and your wife _don’t_ have an open sexual relationship and that this is not normal behavior for you two. Some people have arranged their relationship to be like this, and that’s different. I think your biggest problem, and one you need to confront with your wife is that she is not taking seriously the degree to which this is hurting you.  This, by the way, is common behavior for someone having an affair (that is, being unwilling to accept the degree to which he or she is hurting his or her partner).  She may have all kinds of reasons why you _shouldn’t_ be hurt by this, but until she stops giving you those reasons and starts listening to the fact that you _are_ hurt by it, you two don’t have a chance to start repairing the damage. Currently it is easier for her to pretend her behavior doesn’t matter, and not confront the degree to which she has hurt you. Second, as you realize, she is getting something out of what she is doing.  Her conversations with your "friend" have established an emotional tie with him, and the sexual part is related to that.  Also, she isn’t really doing him or his marriage any favors. Third, you need to be able to think about why sexual faithfulness is important to you and talk about it with her.  For some people, sex is one of the primary expressions of intimacy, and for one partner to have sex with a third party is a major intrusion on that intimacy. I would suggest for some immediate thought marriagebuilders.com. I also suggest that given your wife’s current attitude, this is going to be a tough row to hoe on your own, and that you should seriously consider marriage counseling ASAP.  Your wife will resist probably, but if she actually cares about you she should be willing to go with you because it is important to _you_.         good luck,  Doug

Response:

I am going crazy and am at an absolute loss as how to handle this.  To offer some background, my wife and I have been very happily married for 15 years now, and have four terrific children.  We each have a deep understanding of one another and our family needs, and are completely honest to each other.  An example of this that our friends think is crazy (or we are lying) is the fact that I haven’t told even the most innocent white lie to my wife in so long I can’t remember ever doing it, and she the same with me.  Our communication is good, and because we think so much alike, problems that do arise are quickly solved.  Six years ago after our third child was born, when our childcare situation became unacceptable, I took on the most challenging and rewarding job ever as a stay at home dad.  My wife’s career was going up, mine was stagnating at best, it was an easy decision and each of us fully supported. The problem is my wife has started a sexual relationship with a very good friend at her work.  Both of us have known him for years and he is a truly nice guy that has been beset with several unfortunate personal circumstances that I won’t go into other than the fact he is separated from his wife.  They often lunch together and will occasionally be out for a drink or dinner with other employees.  He has talked a lot about his problems to my wife over the past couple of years, and I have always been happy that he has had somebody to talk to. Two weeks ago, after he broke down to my wife about his loneliness and lack of intimate contact with his wife, my wife "serviced" him. She said that they both felt awkward and embarrassed afterward and in her mind decided it was best to "forget it". She later brought the issue up with him, asking what his thoughts were about it. He basically said he felt both regret and wonderful relief but didn’t want it to continue as they both were married. This led to a discussion about emotions and relationships, and to make this short, decided it did make him feel so good (surprise!) and that the act could be done without any emotional strings. My wife went down on him twice more in the following week and then decided she had to tell me. The initial shock was hard to describe, it hurt badly. What is even harder is her seemingly casual attitude about it and the damage to our relationship that she doesn’t seem to believe. She has told me that she won’t do this anymore until I’ve "come around". She truly believes doing this is nothing more than helping out a buddy and has no repercussions beyond that. And when I have time to understand and work through this, I’ll magically be ok with it.  I asked why she thought this would be the case when I am clearly hurting, her response was to shrug and say I didn’t fully understand that it just wasn’t that big a deal, and she felt no differently toward me or our relationship. She is clearly getting something out of this, and forgive me for being crude, she has a fascination with uncircumcised penises (I’m not) and it came out that he is uncircumcised and was at least somewhat enjoyable for her.  I do believe that she believes (at the very least) that this has neither changed her relationship with him or our marriage.  She is a sexual person and has somewhat of a "guy" attitude toward sex (sorry about the stereotype- biological need, sans emotions). Thanks for listening to me vent.  Right now I oscillate between a variety of things, mostly however toward that this can’t continue no matter how good a friend or how small the favor.  Please offer any constructive advice, but please no "dump the *itch" as our relationship is too strong and not realistic.  Ian.

Response:

Filed under: Loneliness

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