What do you want?
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -William P <d…@email.me> writes: > Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in > news:87k7h8wh42.fsf@homer.cghm: > >> I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about > >> how much I actually dislike most people that I have encountered > >> in the world, especially people in groups. > > Yeah. > > 1) lighten up 2) ever been popular? people are more fun when they > > like you 3) how much of your experience with groups was in primary > > school? > >> I don’t want to be part of any group. > > ANY group? > I don’t think I’ve ever found a group dynamic in real life that I > liked at all. Situations with one other person, or maybe two, sure, > [...] You can say "lighten up", but it’s just been my experience > that I much prefer always to be thinking about something or > analyzing something.
I don’t understand the connection between that and the size of a group. — Can’t we just be strangers?
Response:
Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:87el75q41d.fsf@homer.cghm: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> William P <d…@email.me> writes: >> Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in >> news:87k7h8wh42.fsf@homer.cghm: >> >> I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about >> >> how much I actually dislike most people that I have encountered >> >> in the world, especially people in groups. >> > Yeah. >> > 1) lighten up 2) ever been popular? people are more fun when they >> > like you 3) how much of your experience with groups was in primary >> > school? >> >> I don’t want to be part of any group. >> > ANY group? >> I don’t think I’ve ever found a group dynamic in real life that I >> liked at all. Situations with one other person, or maybe two, sure, >> [...] You can say "lighten up", but it’s just been my experience >> that I much prefer always to be thinking about something or >> analyzing something. > I don’t understand the connection between that and the size of a > group.
Oh I don’t know. It seemed like you were trying to say that lightening up was a step towards understanding why groups can be fun. I do hear this a lot, and I don’t agree that it’s for everyone! I don’t like lightening up. I know there are groups out there that are made up of people who like to think and analyze a lot. I’ve just never found a real life group dynamic for that which I’ve enjoyed. My experience even suggests that I don’t have fun in a group of people where I have fun one on one with any given individual member!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -William P <d…@email.me> writes: > Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in > news:87el75q41d.fsf@homer.cghm: > > William P <d…@email.me> writes: > >> I don’t think I’ve ever found a group dynamic in real life that I > >> liked at all. Situations with one other person, or maybe two, > >> sure, [...] You can say "lighten up", but it’s just been my > >> experience that I much prefer always to be thinking about > >> something or analyzing something. > > I don’t understand the connection between that and the size of a > > group. > Oh I don’t know. It seemed like you were trying to say that > lightening up was a step towards understanding why groups can be > fun.
Oh, I was, although it was of course addressed to OP. > I do hear this a lot, and I don’t agree that it’s for everyone!
Well, I don’t know everyone. I know I used to think somewhat like OP before adopting the attitude I described to him. > I don’t like lightening up.
Is that really true? I just read your post about smileys… > I know there are groups out there that are made up of people who > like to think and analyze a lot. I’ve just never found a real life > group dynamic for that which I’ve enjoyed.
Why is that, do you think? — Can’t we just be strangers?
Response:
Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:87d6mpobca.fsf@homer.cghm: >> Oh I don’t know. It seemed like you were trying to say that >> lightening up was a step towards understanding why groups can be >> fun. > Oh, I was, although it was of course addressed to OP. >> I do hear this a lot, and I don’t agree that it’s for everyone! > Well, I don’t know everyone. I know I used to think somewhat like OP > before adopting the attitude I described to him.
Fair enough, I was kind of knee jerk on that. "Lighten up" and things like that I heard a lot when growing up, and it felt more like a dominance game than anything else. >> I don’t like lightening up. > Is that really true? I just read your post about smileys…
Good question, I don’t know if it’s really true! A lot of what I post online is pretty light. >> I know there are groups out there that are made up of people who >> like to think and analyze a lot. I’ve just never found a real life >> group dynamic for that which I’ve enjoyed. > Why is that, do you think?
Hmm, maybe it is the case that I’ve never enjoyed it because I’ve never become good at it. I don’t think it’s because of being tense. Maybe feeling generally socially outgunned by most of the group, as in not really being able to keep up with the fluency and amount of talking done by the other people, so I always feel less a part of the group than the others. That and often feeling bored of what other people are talking about, and really wanting to actually be doing something, rather than group conversation which often seems aimless to me. I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I’m sure other people do have a lot of fun in groups, but I’ve just found I have preferred just doing things with myself or one other person at a time. I have enjoyed non- conversation centered activities in groups before, like when I used to play Magic: The Gathering a lot.
Response:
Bryan <s…@aol.com> wrote in message <news:VA.00000038.004b702c@elf.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com>… > You are probably here because you would like to overcome this "problem" > of shyness. But why does it bother you? What are you after that shyness > seems to prevent you from having? What is it that you think being less > shy would get you? > I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how much > I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the world, > especially people in groups.
Well, as an ex-shy, I find I like not feeling compelled to dislike people as a self-protective measure.
Response:
Real Ketchup <real_ketc…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:87k7h8wh42.fsf@homer.cghm: >> I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how >> much I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the >> world, especially people in groups. > Yeah. > 1) lighten up > 2) ever been popular? people are more fun when they like you > 3) how much of your experience with groups was in primary school? >> I don’t want to be part of any group. > ANY group?
I don’t think I’ve ever found a group dynamic in real life that I liked at all. Situations with one other person, or maybe two, sure, but I don’t think I’ve ever been at a party or a bar and not been extremely bored and wanting to go home! I don’t think it’s much to do with people not liking me, more that what most people find fun just isn’t interesting for me. When I have had several friends, and have been invited to things like parties, I always found myself finding reasons not to go, and it wasn’t because I was anxious about it at all. You can say "lighten up", but it’s just been my experience that I much prefer always to be thinking about something or analyzing something. So I think it is possible to be far enough over on the introverted curve that group socialization really doesn’t have any benefits. I still think that being able to deal with people is a good skill to get. For instance, I think if I could do the school thing all over again now (when it would be something for me and not my parents) I would be the sort of person who would go and talk to professors about stuff and what they’re researching and ideas, and things like that.
Response:
"FrankC" <speeedofso…@hotmail.com> writes: > I read it in a French translation, but Nietzsche has said > something like: > "when people are in a group, their intelligences are not added, but > divided"
Obviously he was no mathematician. — Can’t we just be strangers?
Response:
"Bryan" <s…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:VA.00000038.004b702c@elf.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com… > You are probably here because you would like to overcome this "problem" > of shyness. But why does it bother you?
Occasional loneliness. > What are you after that shyness > seems to prevent you from having?
Company every now and then. > What is it that you think being less > shy would get you?
Friends. Making contact. The warmth of people who genuinely care about you. > I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how much > I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the world, > especially people in groups. For most of my life I have noticed that > people really do act like herd animals while in groups and that many > people are, at least mentally, always in a group. Of course the object > of this game is to be "popular", to be well liked by the rest of the > herd. I guess that’s supposed to offer some reward.
Sometimes the goal is just to be included. To be moving around doing something in the company of other people rather than being alone constantly. > I don’t want to be part of any group. I don’t want to have anything to > do with "groupthink" or "group reality" (consensus reality?). I have > always avoided groups because I noticed that, once in a group, people > seem to lose whatever individuality they had to start with. I guess it > has also frightened me a bit, because it was completely non-rational > and hence unpredictable. That people were willing to follow Adolf > Hitler or Pol Pot, to become like brainwashed drones, is not surprising > to me at all. It seems essential to our species. For most humans, group > reality *is* reality.
Re: Hitler. It’s a bit more complex than that. I see the point you were trying to make, but it is. The German people were poor and becoming poorer, starving. Hitler and his group were opportunists who lied to a vulnerable people and they believed him because they wanted to be saved. He kept his power in large way by deception and facade. I’m sure there were those who were swept along with the crowd and loved it, but I don’t think they were the majority. Anyway… > I am still trying to figure out what it is about most people that makes > me hate them, but I think at least part of it, is that whole group > dynamic thing. Another part may be that most people don’t seem very > thoughtful. It is not that they are stupid. It is that they don’t seem > to want to think as an individual, apart from their group.
They don’t want to put forth the effort. Life is hard enough. Being a leader is harder. Some people don’t have the mental/emotional strength. Some people plain don’t want it. It’s easier to follow. When things go wrong it’s not your fault. > I live in America, and I hate my culture. I have been affected by it > too, and it is like a poison. I don’t know to what extent people are > different in other cultures. Perhaps there are other cultures that are > more individualistic and thoughtful.
Hm. I suggest you travel and if possible live in another culture for a time before you adopt such a hard line against your own. If you’ve done this already, what are your thoughts? > I don’t see the point of socializing. I don’t want to know the vast > majority of the people out there. I’m sure there are some rare > exceptions, but I don’t know how to find them, certainly not at any > kind of social gathering or social group. Those who are part of that > whole group thing will think this is yet another instance of "sour > grapes", of a social outcast or "loser" who is trying to reject before > being rejected. I know this because I understand the group reality. I > grew up in it and understand how it works. There is nothing that I > could say to such a person. It’s just a part of the reality of the > group, a definition of what is possible in that group world and what is > not and rejecting the group as such is not within the realm of > "possible".
I agree with this completely. You have to sift a lot of sand before you get the gold. Tiring work. > BTW, I am familiar with the motivation of acquiring a girlfriend that > seems essential to so many of the males here. That was my only > motivation for overcoming shyness, that it made me less attractive to > most women. I have since discovered other solutions to that problem > which seem to work.
Mind posting what those solutions are?
Response:
Bryan <s…@aol.com> writes: > You are probably here because you would like to overcome this > "problem" of shyness. But why does it bother you? What are you after > that shyness seems to prevent you from having? What is it that you > think being less shy would get you?
I’m not shy. > I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how > much I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the > world, especially people in groups.
Yeah. 1) lighten up 2) ever been popular? people are more fun when they like you 3) how much of your experience with groups was in primary school? > I don’t want to be part of any group.
ANY group? > I am still trying to figure out what it is about most people that > makes me hate them, but I think at least part of it, is that whole > group dynamic thing. Another part may be that most people don’t seem > very thoughtful. It is not that they are stupid. It is that they > don’t seem to want to think as an individual, apart from their > group.
Well, don’t underestimate how much is due to stupidity on the account of politeness. > I don’t see the point of socializing.
See (1). > I’m sure there are some rare exceptions, but I don’t know how to > find them, certainly not at any kind of social gathering or social > group.
Surely it would be easier to find them if you weren’t shy. You need to realize that no individual is going to satisfy every need you have in a relationship (of the general sort; friend, girlfriend, family, etc). You may be smarter and more independent than 99% of the population, but even supposing you surrounded yourself with similar individuals, most of the time it wouldn’t make much of a difference. IOW, you may need friends to satisfy your intellectual or independent side, but not every relationship has to; it’s not the only side you have, and those aren’t your only needs. — Can’t we just be strangers?
Response:
"Xile" <cos…@marihuana.ro> wrote in message
news:eb213e64.0301121914.6c57a143@posting.google.com… > Bryan <s…@aol.com> wrote in message
<news:VA.00000038.004b702c@elf.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You are probably here because you would like to overcome this "problem" > > of shyness. But why does it bother you? What are you after that shyness > > seems to prevent you from having? What is it that you think being less > > shy would get you? > > I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how much > > I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the world, > > especially people in groups. For most of my life I have noticed that > > people really do act like herd animals while in groups and that many > > people are, at least mentally, always in a group. Of course the object > > of this game is to be "popular", to be well liked by the rest of the > > herd. I guess that’s supposed to offer some reward. > > I don’t want to be part of any group. I don’t want to have anything to > > do with "groupthink" or "group reality" (consensus reality?). I have > > always avoided groups because I noticed that, once in a group, people > > seem to lose whatever individuality they had to start with. I guess it > > has also frightened me a bit, because it was completely non-rational > > and hence unpredictable. That people were willing to follow Adolf > > Hitler or Pol Pot, to become like brainwashed drones, is not surprising > > to me at all. It seems essential to our species. For most humans, group > > reality *is* reality. > > I am still trying to figure out what it is about most people that makes > > me hate them, but I think at least part of it, is that whole group > > dynamic thing. Another part may be that most people don’t seem very > > thoughtful. It is not that they are stupid. It is that they don’t seem > > to want to think as an individual, apart from their group. > > Think about the difference between a Hollywood film, created in an > > obvious, artless way, just to make as much money as possible by trying > > to please the majority in a predictable way and that rare film created > > to show you something and get you to think about it, created without > > any thought of pleasing you, created as an end in itself. Which movie > > will make more money and what does that imply about us as a species? > > I live in America, and I hate my culture. I have been affected by it > > too, and it is like a poison. I don’t know to what extent people are > > different in other cultures. Perhaps there are other cultures that are > > more individualistic and thoughtful. > > I don’t see the point of socializing. I don’t want to know the vast > > majority of the people out there. I’m sure there are some rare > > exceptions, but I don’t know how to find them, certainly not at any > > kind of social gathering or social group. Those who are part of that > > whole group thing will think this is yet another instance of "sour > > grapes", of a social outcast or "loser" who is trying to reject before > > being rejected. I know this because I understand the group reality. I > > grew up in it and understand how it works. There is nothing that I > > could say to such a person. It’s just a part of the reality of the > > group, a definition of what is possible in that group world and what is > > not and rejecting the group as such is not within the realm of > > "possible". > > BTW, I am familiar with the motivation of acquiring a girlfriend that > > seems essential to so many of the males here. That was my only > > motivation for overcoming shyness, that it made me less attractive to > > most women. I have since discovered other solutions to that problem > > which seem to work. I am more interested in other motives. [Also, I do > > appreciate the irony of posting this to a group.] Thanks in advance for > > any genuine replies. > I am not here to get "cured" of shyness, i’m here to be with other > people who share the same thing, i want to live with it, to find a > balance so i can live a pleasent if not normal life, have a gf, not > wait 30 min outside a door before i get in, etc. All this without > changeing the "essence" of me (which i feel is inseparable from my shy > self). > I also think i understand groups and group dynamics, but i think i’m > wise enough to understand a group’s role and accept it. While i’m > almost incapable of "instinctual" social interaction, i do it because > i understand the role of it in society, and make a rational decision > to be in a group (with people i like). > Unlike most people don’t belive in the "most people are stupid and > suck (except me and those i like)" theory. The funny thing is most > people seem to belive it, regardless of their own intelligence, it’s > like most people need to think in term of "masses" are incapable of > accepting that there are millions of people just as complex and > intelligent as themselves.
I for one believe in the "most people suck (including me and those I like(although the set of those I like has a population of 0 anyway))" theory, so sure there are millions of people as complex and intelligent as me, but that hardly means I want to be anywhere near them.
Response:
this post irritates the hell out of me. i actually like most people. i want to be with people. sure i need my space, but i love being with other people and it is frustrating that i struggle so much in my interactions with them. i don’t want to be shy because i am so inhibited, so restricted. i miss out on life. what is the point of a life in isolation from other people? you miss all the things that make life great. people who don’t like other people really piss me off. give people a chance. most people may be clueless but most are not evil. get off your high horse and try to face life instead of avoiding it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bryan <s…@aol.com> wrote in message <news:VA.00000038.004b702c@elf.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com>… > You are probably here because you would like to overcome this "problem" > of shyness. But why does it bother you? What are you after that shyness > seems to prevent you from having? What is it that you think being less > shy would get you? > I am asking this because I have been ruminating recently about how much > I actually dislike most people that I have encountered in the world, > especially people in groups. For most of my life I have noticed that > people really do act like herd animals while in groups and that many > people are, at least mentally, always in a group. Of course the object > of this game is to be "popular", to be well liked by the rest of the > herd. I guess that’s supposed to offer some reward. > I don’t want to be part of any group. I don’t want to have anything to > do with "groupthink" or "group reality" (consensus reality?). I have > always avoided groups because I noticed that, once in a group, people > seem to lose whatever individuality they had to start with. I guess it > has also frightened me a bit, because it was completely non-rational > and hence unpredictable. That people were willing to follow Adolf > Hitler or Pol Pot, to become like brainwashed drones, is not surprising > to me at all. It seems essential to our species. For most humans, group > reality *is* reality. > I am still trying to figure out what it is about most people that makes > me hate them, but I think at least part of it, is that whole group > dynamic thing. Another part may be that most people don’t seem very > thoughtful. It is not that they are stupid. It is that they don’t seem > to want to think as an individual, apart from their group. > Think about the difference between a Hollywood film, created in an > obvious, artless way, just to make as much money as possible by trying > to please the majority in a predictable way and that rare film created > to show you something and get you to think about it, created without > any thought of pleasing you, created as an end in itself. Which movie > will make more money and what does that imply about us as a species? > I live in America, and I hate my culture. I have been affected by it > too, and it is like a poison. I don’t know to what extent people are > different in other cultures. Perhaps there are other cultures that are > more individualistic and thoughtful. > I don’t see the point of socializing. I don’t want to know the vast > majority of the people out there. I’m sure there are some rare > exceptions, but I don’t know how to find them, certainly not at any > kind of social gathering or social group. Those who are part of that > whole group thing will think this is yet another instance of "sour > grapes", of a social outcast or "loser" who is trying to reject before > being rejected. I know this because I understand the group reality. I > grew up in it and understand how it works. There is nothing that I > could say to such a person. It’s just a part of the reality of the > group, a definition of what is possible in that group world and what is > not and rejecting the group as such is not within the realm of > "possible". > BTW, I am familiar with the motivation of acquiring a girlfriend that > seems essential to so many of the males here. That was my only > motivation for overcoming shyness, that it made me less attractive to > most women. I have since discovered other solutions to that problem > which seem to work. I am more interested in other motives. [Also, I do > appreciate the irony of posting this to a group.] Thanks in advance for > any genuine replies.
Response:
"Xile" <cos…@marihuana.ro> a
Filed under: Overcoming Loneliness
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